AI Problems

[bradycreek]

Here is my situation. I got up 11 cows to AI.  Gave them all a shot of leutolyase 5cc's in he muscle. 3 came into standing heat Ai-ed all three and turned into seperate pasture for a week and now is with the clean up bull.
 Since none of the rest came into heat I can only assume they were not cycling yet or were more than 10 days from a heat cycle. I increased grain, double checked my mineral feeder. Increased calf creep feed and put on new grass as well as offered free choice round bales of hay..  I did all these things to stimulate cows to cycle by taking some nutrition requirments off the cows and increasing their protein and fat conten if they haven't cycled.  The cows are watched for 15 to 30 min early morning, mid morning, early afternoon, early evening, and again at dark.  8 days latter I noticed one cow #17 showing the signs...the usual head butting, restlessness, mounting other cows ect. She was doing this early in the morning.  I had my partner check them to see if she was standing at 10 am, 1 pm, and 3 pm. Nothing. No cows were even attempting to ride her but she was still restless.  I thought OK she will be in standing heat this evening...No luck still restless following other cows around but nothing was after her.  I think she will sure be in at midnight not.
Next morning back to normal I never saw a cow even attempt to ride her then it was back to normal for the herd.  4 days latter #19 doing the same things with the same results. No cows even attemp to ride her but she appeared to be coming in.
Now With the remaining 8 cows I just don't think the cows are riding the ones in heat which make my heat detection difficult at best. There is no bull or bull calves in the immediate area. I know a gomer bull would solve some of my problems but it isn't an option at this time.
Is it possible that the first heat cycle just isn't that potent so that is why the other cows don't show interest. I'm not willing to try CIDR's yet would like to wait to see if I can get a natual heat first. 
The calves on these cows run from dec to mid feb born.
OK what is your suggestions what should I do...I feel nothing for the time being just wait and be patient but I do hate to miss cows in heat.  I did order some of the colored patchs to place on the tail heads to see if somthing was ridden when I wasn't around.  Haven't had this much trouble before seeing a cow in heat or getting one to cycle.  I know the hard winter and the fact most of the cows are good milkers has some to do with it but I'm feeding hard to take care of that.
Its been 15 days since giving the Leutolayse I thought of trying again but if I waited a 6-8 more days some might come in anyway. If they aren't cycling a leut shot would be a waste.
Thanks
Don

[knabe]

chalk their tail heads

no tail heads rubbed at all?

my two month old bull calf sure is a good checker.

the other thing i do is write down which one's i think may be coming in, and watch them closely on the next round.  mine have a little fat on their tailhead, not obese (obese being a relative term)like show heifers.

i have a notebook my wife got me cuz i kept using her calender.

i don't give shots.  just watch when i get home from work and from 4:30 am till 6 on scheduled days as i'm up at that time to go to work anyway.  if i need to leave for work, my wife watches till 8:30.

i have all the windows marked on a calender.

[Bawndoh]

Well I thought you were supposed to Lutalyse, heat detect for 11 days, and then give another shot to the ones that didnt come into heat.  Then heat detect and AI them agian. 
Anyhow, heat detection between 9am-6pm would be virtually useless.  Cattle just do not show the proper signs of heat during the middle of the day.  I suppose this case would be different becuase you used the Lutalyse and are not just naturally heat detecting.  Now I am contradicting myself...Lol.  The industry implemented the AM/PM rule because cattle just dont show signs of heat any other time of day.  It is usually not accurate anyways.  They are typically not eating, and are just loafing during the late evening, early morning hours.  This is why they show stronger, more accurate signs.

[bradycreek]

I agree that most times cows don't show good heat signs during the middle (heat) of the day. But here it is still 65 to 70 degree highs and a rainy spring I've seen cattle come in and stand at all hours if its not to hot.
Yes I normally would give another leut shot after 10-12 days but since only 3 came in I assumed that they just weren't cycling yet.
I thought and still do that a shot of leut will cause them to cycle within 4 days give or take a little if they were already natually cycling. Unless they were more that 10-12 days from cycling anyway.
And yes I know what assume means. LOL 
dh

[red]

my cows are milking so heavy right now their heats seem to be delayed somewhat. I need to wean a few IMO!

Red

[kanshow]

Red, we had the same problem with our cows until we brought the bulls home and put them in the adjoining pen.   Seems like they all started at the same time.   

[Doc]

 Bawndoh , I've gotta disagree with your statement. I'm putting eggs in 2 recips that were standing at 3:30 pm on Tuesday. I stuck 1 egg in last week in a cow that was in a cow that was standing in the afternoon. I'm like Bradycreek with our temps being in the low 70's for the most part, so the heat is not a factor here right now. Maybe Cowboy will get some time & get on here & help. I use Kamar heat detectors to help catch & confirm signs.

[Jill]

We use Estrus Alert patches and they work great.  Do you have a steer that would be in the area, sometimes they will work too.  We are putting embryo's in everything that calves prior to March 15th so your calving time shouldn't be an issue, they should have all had several cycles by now, it sounds like you're just missing them, but it seems really strange they wouldn't have jump marks this time of year, our rub the hair off from being jumped. 

[linnettejane]

have you tried pulling the calves off for say 12-24 hours?  i've done that before and it seemed to get them all stirred up good...

[CAB]

Bradycreek, what part of the country do you live in? Asking B/C I want to know how hard of winters you have and if I ask you to body condition score your cows, what would you say that you think their BC would be? I agree with the second shot of lute @ 10-12days for non responders and disagree also with the statement that heat detection is a waste of time from 9am to 6pm, I see activity allday long, but would agree that it can seem like more activity during the evening and night. I have sometimes gone out midnight to 2am  to ck on cows heat cycles. I don't think that you can get a quick response to all of a sudden puring more feed to the cows. That will take 2 to 3 months response time possibly. It won't hurt either, it's just not going to be possible to be like a light switch on, off situation. There are a lot of cows in body condition scores around our area of 3&4s. The high price of feeds and hard long winter is going to take a toll on getting cows back into condition for breeding. JMO.

[bradycreek]

I live east of KC Missouri. The winter was hard this year for around here we fed more hay than have in years and years.  Ran out of hay and had to buy some which haven't done for at least 10 years or more. The cows ran pasture and were fed hay with free choice mineral and salt until april 20 when we rounded them up and moved them down to my place so I could watch them and try and get them AI'ed.  I thought a few of the cows were looking kinda poor so I started graining them.  As far as body condition score I feel embarrassed to say but I had a couple of 3-4's.  Once the hardest of the winter was over I got carried away with other projects and a few of the cows really got sucked down.  Out of the 11 probally 4 of them are 3's or 4's rest are 5's to 6's.  I feel  like I'm watching them more than enough but I think Jill is right I'm just missing them as I have seen some rubbed off hair around the tail and hips.
We are putting some patches or paint or something my partner picked up yesterday on the cows tonight. Will Keep you all posted. I'm think I just need to be a little more patient they will probally come around in the next few weeks.
thanks
don

[kanshow]

Estrus Alerts are the way to go for heat detection.    When our cows started coming in, this year, some of them are almost riding themselves bald.   

[CAB]

  Don, I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but a person needs to be real about it. I had to start graining my cows more and earlier than other years. It's hard to do when corns 5-6 dollars. With the calves sucking on them through those tuffer months of winter it's just going to take a little longer. There's nothing like green grass to get a cows system recharged. It also sounds like to me that you are spending more than enough time watching for heats. Good Luck Don, Brent AKA, Cab

[BRdoc]

Bradycreek, For the little extra $, I feel very strongly about syncronizing your cows. We put CIDR's in on a Wed night with a shot of systerellen (sp). The following Wed night we pull the CIDR's, give a shot of Lutalyse, and put Estrus Alert patches on. We pull all calves off on Thurs morning. Even with the patches we watch all cows and breed accordingly.
Systerellen will help them build up
CIDR's won't let them come in. So, when you Lut them, they come in alot closer
Patches just help KNOW who is in. Some may still be in without Standing
Pulling calves will undoubtedly make some come in that wouldn't otherwise
I feel that if you are going to AI, you must sync your cows.
just my 2 cents.

[Jill]

I feel that if you are going to AI, you must sync your cows.

I won't go quite that far, but syncing them does make it easier and keeps you on a tighter scedule for AI and calving.  We sync our recips, but we AI on natural heats.
We are just south of Kansas City so you aren't far from us.