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Messages - Hopster1000

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1
Was Vantage as wide at the ground as he appeared? What was his hip and pin width like?

I didn't see him when I was young (I would have been still in single figures myself when he was born) so just going by pictures. My cow is a grand-daughter and she is not the biggest (by our standards) but she is broad, smooth shouldered, good backed with 2 wide pin bones. Always calves herself. Has had four 36kg calves by four differently bred bulls, although she could easily calve bigger calves.
If I could get my hands on Vantage semen I would definitely use it.

2
is he naturally just thick then?

Yes. Him and sons top sellers at jlg


I know there is plenty of thick shorthorns as well, but sometimes it is hard to tell just what is naturally thick and what is myostatin. Would all breeds not have similar issues with single carrier myostatin sires?
I've used quite a few carriers, sometimes because I didn't realise it and sometimes because other options were not available.
Have bred a myostatin free bull that I thought was good enough and reasonably thick and I used him this year.
He's a grandson of the Australian bull Broughton Park Thunder and his dam goes back to Ballyart Vantage. He's a 2 year old.
Hope I've got the pictures right!

3
here's a thick bull


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv5rL0WRwKo

i've seen a few sons that were thick.


Good bull obviously. He definitely made good money!
Does he carry a myostatin mutation?
I looked up his registration and unless I'm reading it wrong his defects are AMF-CAF-D2F-DDF-M1F-NHF-OHF-OSF-RDF. Does this bull have this many? I am still doubting that I am reading the registration page wrongly.
I could hardly believe how long the list of possible genetic mutations there are in Angus.
The list code for myostatin seems to be DM?

If he is not a myostatin carrier is he naturally thick then? And he passes that thickness to his offspring. If he were to be used on a myostatin female carrier and she passed it on, would the resulting calves then be much thicker than that sire would normally breed?

4


 but you will soon find out when you get offspring from a myostatin carrier that is free from the mutation.



interesting observation

E226X seems to be the worst variant for covering up inadequate base thickness in cattle. However, different breeding lines have different results when the myostatin drops out. Alta Cedar Perfect Storm lines don't seem to suffer as much. Diamond Captain Mark and Waukaru Patent lines can be hit and miss but I think the worst are the Trump lines. Good looking cattle with myostatin mutation, but completely different without it.

I should point out that is my own personal observation from a small number of cattle and when observed over a larger population it may be very different.

Even F94L isn't good when it drops out. Must LIM cattle over here have 2 copies. Which means if used on dairy cattle or beef cattle one copy will always be passed on. I have seen LIM offspring from Holstein dairy cows from a bull LIM bull that only carried one copy. The non carrier calves just looked like black Holsteins. No thickness whatsoever passed on.

5
The incidence of myostatin in the cattle isn't a major problem for me as long as I know it is there and can plan for it. However I am starting to be of the opinion that it is much better to breed cattle without it, for one main reason, and that is because I think it hides narrow cattle. Not always, but you will soon find out when you get offspring from a myostatin carrier that is free from the mutation.
Suddenly what you had thought of was a thick line of cattle turns out to be not when the myostatin mutation is bred out of it.
A single mutation doesn't seem to cause problems with milk, calving or fertility etc It's the thickness that disappears when it disappears is my issue with it.

I think most people over look this.

Not only is it a false phenotype, but it is also affecting the numbers. The system can't comprehend that the marbling and rib eye are unusual for a reason or that the ww an yw might out perform the prediction. Throw a half a dozen carriers into the breed organized sire test and you have a mess within what was already a borderline statistical guess.

I plan to use a well known e226x carrier on a myo free cow, for non muscling reasons, and have found an F94L carrier I would also like to try. The F94L carrier's phenotype is the reason I was interested in using him, but his test results have put him on the back burner until I convince myself there isn't a clean bull out there built like he is to try instead.

I think the single copy of myostatin in the shorthorn breed is like a false economy. The double copy (usually e226x) causes too many problems. In the UK and Ireland the F94L mutation is often called the profit gene as a double copy doesn't really affect calving or milk production.

In a perfect world the numbers should only really be drawn from non carrier cattle I think.

I have semen and embryos that have carriers of myostatin and I'm unsure whether to continue to use them or not as I don't know how thick and how much ribe eye etc a non carrier will have. For instance, maybe someone here could tell me, what are non carriers bred from Northern Legend like?

If, like you, I was to use a carrier, I would be looking to see if there was non carrier offspring that I could see.

6
The incidence of myostatin in the cattle isn't a major problem for me as long as I know it is there and can plan for it. However I am starting to be of the opinion that it is much better to breed cattle without it, for one main reason, and that is because I think it hides narrow cattle. Not always, but you will soon find out when you get offspring from a myostatin carrier that is free from the mutation.
Suddenly what you had thought of was a thick line of cattle turns out to be not when the myostatin mutation is bred out of it.
A single mutation doesn't seem to cause problems with milk, calving or fertility etc It's the thickness that disappears when it disappears is my issue with it.

7
predators?

nice video, but not sure of the point.

Don't think a seal could do them much harm.

Even though the whole video is interesting, the point I suppose was aimed at the cattle section of the video. There has been much discussion here about the shape of bulls and cows and what nature intended. The discussions have also touched upon easy fleshing cattle that need no extra input. I thought that in itself would be a point of interest.
These cattle obviously self select for ease of calving, and ability to survive on a small island all year round. I'd imagine the winters would be pretty harsh.
Also would you not imagine that natural selection would have arrived at cattle that are quite so large and thick. Any other cattle I have seen in natural habitats seem to gravitate towards the smaller and lighter end of the scale.

8
The Big Show / Isle of Swona. Feral Angus/Shorthorn cattle herd.
« on: June 28, 2021, 01:41:22 PM »
I think there will be some of you regular posters who would be really interested in this video.
If you just want to see the cattle then there is 2 minutes at the start. Some more at 31.30 and then again at 34.30.

https://youtu.be/daYdPZJsKFE


9
The Big Show / Re: The cover of Shorthorn Country
« on: May 28, 2021, 01:18:26 PM »

[/quote]
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
[/quote]

I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.

10
The Big Show / UK breeding cattle sale
« on: April 11, 2021, 03:30:38 PM »
I just thought I would drop a link to a sale of in-calf beef cattle in Northern Ireland. Mainly with the thought of showing what other people value in their livestock.
They are not my cup of tea at all, and I'm not sharing the link as a good example of cattle in Northern Ireland, (there are some great maternal cattle producing beef in Northern Ireland) but some people will pay handsomely for these heifers. They will be used to mainly breed show calves.
I know they will horrify several of you as breeding replacements.

https://www.jalexlivestock.com/jalex-select-ii


11
The Big Show / Re: dutch belted
« on: April 11, 2021, 03:18:42 PM »
They were of course brought to Scotland and crossed with the Galloway to create the belted Galloway.

12
The Big Show / Re: Myostatin gene
« on: July 22, 2020, 02:25:10 AM »
From my own personal experience the affects of the myostatin deletion are not at all consistent. I have a double muscled SH cow. Fairly sure she has 2 copies. She is very muscled, but has calved unassisted, has enough milk and is a good mother. Calves are about 38kg (which is small for here) they don't show muscle at the start, but then do after a couple of weeks.
As with most herds there are a few carriers. One or two carriers seem a bit harder to calf, but most don't. Myostatin free cows that then have myostatin carrier calves are also inconsistent as some calves are larger while many are normal at birth and develop some muscle later. The muscle development is also inconsistent as some carrier calves can have defined muscle while some are the softest easiest fleshing.
Bull testicle size is not consistent either as I had a carrier bull with very large testicles. Some are obviously smaller but I haven't seen a carrier bull with testicles that are too small.  Homogeneous SH bulls can't be registered here so not sure about their testicle size.
All these example would be for the same myostatin deletion.

13
The Big Show / Re: Houston stock show and rodeo canceled???
« on: March 22, 2020, 02:02:01 PM »
What is really tragic is the willingness of the American public to buy into the panic which is politically driven and enhanced and promoted by a complicit media.   Covid-19 started,  we are told,  in the city of Wuhan in the province of Hebei,  China.   Wuhan has a population of 3.9 million and Hebei Province has a population of 75 million.   There has been a total number of cases in the entire country of China of about 81,000.  This, in a country with total population of 1.4 billion.   This hardly represents an explosive outbreak!   Far less in terms of  percentage infected than our seasonal influenza which we all take for granted as a part of life.    To date,  as of 3-11-20,  there are 1215 confirmed cases in the
United States with a total population of 330 million.   This is just the latest iteration of "chicken little".

How are you guys managing across the pond now? Europe is basically in lockdown now. I heard New York will have shortages soon?
The figures from China are small in comparison to the population as they went into total lockdown across the country. Apart from food shops and pharmacies, all other shops, factories and businesses closed. People weren't allowed out apart from a single person per house to buy food.
Europe is almost at that point but have done it more gradually.
Are similar measures being introduced in North America?

14
The Big Show / Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« on: January 18, 2020, 04:28:12 AM »
I guess it is a chicken and egg thing. Durham Shorthorns were used to create the Maine Anjou breed. Do they know if the the Durhams brought the Myo into the Maines, or if it existed in the French breed that was crossed with the Durhams? This statement from a scientific paper would seem to answer that question - "The double muscling syndrome was first documented some 200 years ago in Durham cattle by the Englishman, George Culley (1804)". Thus the reason the Durham cattle were used to create Belgian Blue and likely why the Maine Anjou cattle carry it. Hard to say that because an animal carries Myostatin it must have an incorrect pedigree.

The general consensus in the UK is that the Shorthorn always had the myostatin gene and it was more likely that Maine Anjou and Belgian Blue got the myostatin gene from the shorthorns than the other way around.
Even looking at some old black and white pictures the muscle definition on one or two bulls (that would have been native bred) would lend you to think myostatin was present. Now, as to which variant originated in the Shorthorn breed it is hard to say. Most breeds have more than one variant, as in Shorthorn. The F94L variant is most common in Limousin cattle, but they obviously have other types also.

15
The Big Show / Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« on: January 14, 2020, 06:44:55 AM »
Rare Breeds Survival Trust in the UK monitors two sections of native dairy Shorthorn.

https://www.rbst.org.uk/northern-dairy-shorthorn2

https://www.rbst.org.uk/dairy-shorthorn-original-population

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