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Messages - wiseguy

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1
The Big Show / Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« on: October 23, 2019, 09:18:18 AM »
When the sire test started each bull was used on 20 cows through timed A.I.
If 50% conception was achieved then each bull would have a minimum of 10 offspring. The problem then becomes that 1/2 are bulls and 1/2 heifers. Therefore, 5 in each group. Then the problem becomes that some bulls have less than 50% conception and some much greater.
Although I believe the sire test is the best move the ASA has taken in many years I would agree that the test needs to be limited to less sires. I would like to see 50 cows mated to each bull.
The reality is we need to find large commercial herds that are willing to sample 3-5 bulls and retain ownership through a feedlot. Currently there are a few producers in the Midwest doing this and turning in all the data to the ASA. I believe the bulls uses where JSF Gauge, Waukaru Optimus, and  Byland Top Gun.

2
The Big Show / Re: Myostatin gene
« on: July 22, 2019, 05:28:02 PM »
Mohican sure reminds me of Strathore Irish Magic-There is one common thread between these two and the bulls X Bar listed-The superflag blood-Hey Medium Rare do you think I might be on the right track-he did make them bigger and "variations there of" were used alot in that respect. O0

I have also had discussions about Rb eagle 148th and 255th. I have been told these bulls expressed a different Myostatin variant. I have never used any of these genetics, but the believed culprit was said to be Chuck O Luck Real Silver. Again none of this is confirmed.

3
The Big Show / Re: Myostatin gene
« on: July 22, 2019, 04:40:57 PM »
https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

So your contention is that it goes back to Ideal 69F's dam? Has anyone ever tested Gafa Mochican? I have to admit Mochican sure looks like a carrier..... I was told he was extremely heavily muscled and really orange in color. I have no idea and I'm not on a witch hunt.   I will say that I asked Dr. Bert Moore about this years ago and he thought I was on the right track.

I'm with X-bar on this one. I think its not much of an issue. They jumped the gun on DS and have decided to play a wait and see game on myo. I would be suprised if 5% of the current breeders in the states even knew what it was.

4
The Big Show / Re: Myostatin gene
« on: July 22, 2019, 11:56:21 AM »
I have heard Buster's sire, Eionmor Ideal 69F was a carrier. If so, it's likely further back than that. He does have a common sire on both sides of the pedigree, but it could have come from any ancestor.

I have always been told that his maternal grand sire GAFA Mochican was the starting point. About 3-4 years ago I contacted the American Shorthorn Association about listing myostatin as a genetic defect. I still have the email, but basically the board stated that it WOULD NOT be listing it as a defect, but would provide testing for anyone that wanted it. I have had several tested over the past 3 years and I believe that you can tell by looking at the calf if they are carriers. They usually are more descript in their muscle shape, and are slightly finer boned.


5
The Big Show / Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
« on: February 07, 2019, 11:26:33 AM »
Thats the kind of real world testing that needs to get out-I hate to say It-I think there would be alot more of credibility with everyday commercial people if you guys could get the numbers out rather than an Association -And PS-I saw the ad on  your 2 young sale bull calves coming up-I dont rant on Canadian genetics much-but they are WAY GOOD-Looked em up-JMO some of the cattle like Sonny and CSF Optimizer have to add to my version of eye candy-BUT THAT BULL SASKVALLEY CHALLENGER sure must be a changer BW wise along with being thick-even though his EPDS do not reflect that yet. Have the ones you have had all been low BW like  the two I"m writing about? O0

Thanks Mark. Challenger has done a great job thus far. He does seem to be moderating BW, while not giving up much in terms of performance. I agree that with time his EPDs will adjust to fall more in line with what we are experiencing. I need to send in his DNA to get genomic epds. He was slated to go in this years sire test, but when I called Matt to enter him they already had all the slots full. I appreciate the kind words on the sale bulls. Maybe I'll start a thread on them once we are done picturing this weekend.

6
The Big Show / Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
« on: February 06, 2019, 01:11:51 PM »
On top of this, for whatever reason, IGS has the shorthorn breed buried in a hole when compared to the other breeds. A suggestion that would address this issue has been brought up to the powers that be, but the potential results are feared.

How do we address the issue of the ISG hole for Shorthorns?
Isn't ISG basically Simmental leading the way with other breeds collaborating?

Would it help if people put Shorthorn Bulls in as Foundation animals in the Simmental database and turned in data to Simmental.

Would it help to put Simmental bulls in the Shorthorn database as Foundation animals with data collected and turned in to Shorthorn.

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud of another breed that they do not personally own into the Shorthorn database?

How would one go about putting in an AI Sire from an AI Stud from Shorthorn that they do not personally own into the Simmental database?

I know with the small numbers I have (roughly 10-15 Shorthorn females and 10-15 Simmental females) that it would not make much of a dent in the data.  The question is would it help enough to make a difference?

Attached you will find Saskvalley Imperative's numbers in the IGS system. This run must be a little old as his EPDs are not up to date. I believe that all the sires from the sire test have been put in the IGS system. One thing I have pushed for is the implementation of the API index in shorthorns. Nothing makes more sense to me than an All Purpose Index. This however includes Stayability as the most important value and people have reservations about this figure. I for one think that the most valuable trait available to use is knowing what to expect for cow longevity.

7
The Big Show / Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
« on: February 06, 2019, 11:05:58 AM »
so no other breeds. what do numbers mean with no other breeds.
ww seem low?

Knabe raises a good question on the thickest bulls thread.  It would be real interesting to see the Sire test use say bulls representing the top 10% for the same traits of Shorthorns and Simmentals on this same cow base under the same conditions during the same year.

I realize to do this would add considerable cost, but it would statistically give you apples to apples, removing the variable for management and year to year forage and climate conditions.  It would probably be a good start for shorthorns to prove or disprove the perceptions.

I know year ago when Dr. Lipsey was still with the Simmental association he told me and dad that there was no way that a Shorthorn could grow with a Simmental even though the evidence with the bloodlines being used by us at the time showed the Shorthorns performing with or beter than the Simmentals for Birth Weight and weaning weight. 

Shorthorn Bulls used were Mel-bar Rodeo Drive 347, RB Eagle 148.  Simmental Bulls used  were Nichols Legacy G151, Nichols Destiney D12, and TE McCredie G8

Unfortunately, the idea of comparing breeds to each other on the same cow base is not going to happen. That was the first question that I asked when we began this sire test. I wanted to get other breeds involved, and compare progeny.

Here is the reality. Angus has the market share and has nothing to prove. Hereford know they can't compete on the grid, that's not their game. No continental breed wants to go against the Shorthorns because they are pretty confident they will get negative results especially when it comes to IMF.

So then I said what if we buy the semen off the open market. Immediately the Universities will walk away because they can't afford to make a breed association mad at them.

So what is the answer? Mike Hora in Iowa is doing another test for Shorthorns that I helped set up. Mike sells all his cattle on the Grid and prides himself on Prime carcasses. Mike bred 70-80 cows to JSF Gauge, Waukaru Optimus, and Byland Top Gun in 2017. He has the calves in the feelot and will be harvesting them  late summer and into fall 2019. 

The great thing about this test is that he will compare them to Gardiner Angus sired calves in the same contemporary group. Side by side feeding. Unfortunately, we won't have the conversion data like the U of I. Same cow base, same feedlot, same kill date, etc.

However, my worry is that no one will take this trial seriously because it was not performed by a "University." Unless of course the Shorthorns fall short. Then the other breeds will say "I told you so!"
But going against Gardiner Angus sires is a tall order.

The reality is that things aren't as simple as people think. An enormous amount of work goes into getting these trails set up, and completed. More importantly, Universities aren't willing to follow the breeds guidelines step by step the way we want them. Sure it would be simple to walk away, but then we are back at the beginning with no data and no leg to stand on.

The ASA could do a better job of being transparent. Heck I wouldn't know any of this information if I wasn't a part of both trials. However, they aren't going to tell people why things didn't work out. Their job is to only promote the the good things.

8
The Big Show / Re: University of Illinois Sire Test
« on: February 05, 2019, 08:33:14 PM »
I have attached the entire sire summary for both bulls and heifers of the 2017-2018 ASA sire test. I also have the RFI numbers, but that file is way to large to get loaded and still needs some editing to make it easier to read.

The first thing Dr. Shike told us when we went into this venture is the WW would be horrible. Calves are calved late September, no creep and raised on fescue hay. They have seen the same results with the Simmental and Charolais progeny. However, once on feed they took off like crazy. Dr. Shike mentioned the last 60 days on feed the entire group averaged over 4.0 ADG.

I do know the individual kill data is now in the digital beef system. (Which you and I cant see for some reason). The new EPD'S reflect this information. Specifically, my sire Imperative went from the bottom 95% to the top 25% in REA. I agree with Medium Rare. I think all the other carcass data at this point has been a guess at best. I will say Byland Top Gun was the bull I had on my radar before the test based on his carcass EPDS. He DID NOT disappoint, and in my opinion is the go to sire in the breed to improve IMF.

Take a look. I am more than pleased with the data. If I remember correctly the entire group averaged  80% choice or better.

9
The Big Show / Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« on: February 04, 2019, 10:20:21 PM »
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to nominate a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Dont make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thats ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.

Great points by you and medium rare. Does the U of I give a break down for the reasons for the costs? Im sure the grow safe feeders were not cheap. But for the money they charge it would seem to me a good business venture to create a similar test station. I appreciate all the effort put into it, I just couldnt get my head around the costs. 14 bulls at 2k a bull is 28k. Who got the money when the calves were sold?


The cost was based on cows inseminated. Not on the number of live calves. U of I came up with this cost. I never received a break down. The cattle belong to the university, and receive all profits/ losses.

If Shorthorns don't utilize this opportunity other breeds are waiting in line to take our spot. At the same cost. The ASA did cover several expenses not associated with the U of I charge. Matt Woolfolk has a presentation about it. Email him. I bet he would send it to you.

When was the last time 150 head of shorthorn sired calves had complete performance, intake, and kill data in one group......?

I know people beat up on the ASA for WHR costs, TOC memberships, money spent on Jr. Nationals, not having a field rep, etc. Call your board of directors and make your opinions known.

10
The Big Show / Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« on: February 04, 2019, 09:51:33 PM »
According to the RFD program, all the calves in the sire tests, 250ish, have came unassisted and so far 80% graded choice or higher. Some of the bulls that have been entered carry some thickness, might be worth browsing the results to pick one out E6.

Last I looked, it cost a pretty penny to nominate a bull for the test. I could be wrong this year but if the ASA is going to have a sire test, why does it cost the producer so much dinero? Why not let any breeder who thinks they have a bull worthy submit a cane of semen? Why charge a fee? Have an initial proposal put out by the ASA asking for bulls. After everybody has submitted a bull/ bulls, have a vote by the whole memebership via a online survey to make sure the breed is fully represented by the samples. Dont make money be the variable as to whether a bull is worthy of the test. Let peer reviewed decide. Why limit it with exaborant fees? The breed needs all the help it can get, not some arbitrary fee so the ASA and U of I can collect the cash.

10 bulls in the latest round of sire test. Thats ridiculous. I hope Monte reads SP. or whoever is in charge of that test.

Brock,
I was responsible for getting the ASA sire test program going. When I was chair of the Shorthorn plus committee I approached the U of I after Simmental and Charolais had done similar tests. I think it would be rude to discuss actual numbers, but lets just agree it was more than 20k and less than 50k for the U of I to let us participate. If you would have attended the sire test field day one of the things Matt discussed was the value of the test in actual dollars. I nominated my bull Imperative. He had 16 calves. For my $2,000 dollars I paid someone to collect all the performance data, DNA genotype the calves, collect data from the grow safe system, (which I don't have) and compare them to 14 other sires within the breed. So it cost me $125 a head. I am very comfortable with that. There is nowhere else that this is being done. Period. Compared to the Waukaru, Lovings, Jungels, Leveldale, etc I am a little fish in a big pond. I calve 25-30 cows a year. Last I checked they are all over 100. But I still feel like I have one of the best bulls in the breed, and it was time to prove it.

The ASA can't just drop that kind of money on a sire test. Heck that is a persons salary at the association. As breeders we have to "put up or shut up!" I wish our association could afford to offer this service, but they can't.  If you disagree with me that's fine. No hard feelings. It's a big cost. I just think it was worth it.

11
The Big Show / Re: Top 5 thickest shorthorn bulls available.
« on: January 31, 2019, 11:16:35 PM »
I think when you say top 5 power bulls in the breed this guy has to be in the discussion. Saskvalley Imperative 33X. Exceptional growth, WW and YW trait leader, and top 25% REA., He sires bulls that look like bulls, and females that look like cows. Out of 16 progeny in the ASA sire test he sired 2 primes, 13 choice, and 1 select. $136 BMI


12
The Big Show / Re: Saskvalley Yesterday
« on: January 09, 2018, 02:47:11 PM »
We used Yesterday the first year he was available and have coming 3 year old cows, bred heifers, and yearling cattle all sired by him. We have been very pleased with the results, but I can confidently say he will not add depth. He will add muscle, marbling, and performance. I will attach a picture of twin yesterday daughters that will calve shortly to Saskvalley Task Force ( weaning photo).

13
The Big Show / Re: Possible donor cow
« on: January 31, 2017, 05:48:11 PM »
Saskvalley Imperative 33x. I think he checks a lot of the boxes. Look him up on the ASA website and form your own opinion.

14
I don't know all of the details.  I only know what I have read here on steer planet and what was sent out in the email.  From what I understand this sound like a fantastic opportunity for the breed.  We would gladly apply to take part in this study if we had semen available from a bull that meets the criteria.  We have not drawn a bull for many years because we rarely A.I. anything (we are planning to change that this year).  I wish we had semen available on some of our walking bulls that we are using this year and we would definitely apply to join in the study.  I feel that the cost is acceptable for the data that will be generated.
Thank you Wes for getting the ball rolling on something like this.  This is exactly what this breed needs; to generate real world data.

Thanks Barry. I know at least one Saskvalley bull will be represented. It was also my suggestion for this to be a joint venture between the ASA and Canadian association, but with time restrictions that was not an option. Maybe if a second year of trials takes place it is something to consider.

15
Josh I wasn't trying to be defensive. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm simply stating that based on the integrity of the firms asked, and the data they submit to this point I see no relivance in what " others" are submitting. Why as a breeder would you pay and submit semen on a bull that you know won't perform because you have lied about the data. More importantly why send semen in on a bull and get no calves or minimal calves because they died at birth? I think that in its self sorts out the problem Bulls.

I'm sorry that this wasn't open to everyone. But there is time still to get in. After all it is all over the Internet, and apparently was sent out in the newsletter. It is rushed. I agree.

Finally, I want to apologize if I was rude. I feel as though the Association in the time allotted has done as good a job as they could. Yes others opinions are great, but remember everyone has one.
I do feel the ASA has the best goal, and that is that ALL sires do well.

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