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The Big Show / Re: Red Angus bull "Buf Crk The Right Kind U199
« on: November 09, 2013, 09:40:12 PM »
Registration 1260155. I see him advertised from owner. I kinda like his numbers. Whats wrong with him? Just not used outside the breed? Seems like Buffalo creek has had 10 dispersals in the last 9 years. Any thoughts on him? 50$ a straw?

They dispersed the cow herd in 2010 - the 2009 bulls sold in Feb 2011 and the 2010 bulls Dec of 2011.

The bull is owned by Buffalo Creek (they no longer have cows but have a semen inventory), 5L, Loosli and Westphal - he has 757 progeny in 127 groups - I am not sure there is anything wrong with him - he is a pretty good looking mature bull and has an interesting and different pedigree on the bottom

The Big Show / Re: What should I have in my Cattle First Aid kit?
« on: November 07, 2013, 04:38:09 PM »

I have Dex on hand for my horses!! Dex can be used several ways on horses, depending on dosage and intensions. I asked a logical question in regards to its use on cattle, That is all. I do believe that you are reading way too much in to my posts and obviously take me for some kind of idiot. Yes, my vet lives about 1.5 miles from me and she would be my first contact before medicating, however as close as she lives, she is not always available to my beck and call. So I asked some experienced cattle breeders/owners what are good medical products to have on hand in case of emergency. There is nothing and I mean nothing like the experience of seasoned cattle owners (same as with horses) who day in and day out live & breathe cattle!! A vet only practices on so many animals and while my vet is an all species vet she does not practice on many cattle or raise them. So YES, I am asking for suggestions from a cattle forum. "Suggestions" is the key here folks.

No Sandy I don't think you are some kind of an idiot but the first person I would contact for suggestions about using drugs for your cattle would be your veterinarian - she would know what kind of cattle you have, what kind of biosecurity your farm has, what the risks are in terms of disease and injury and what drugs you should have on hand and how to use them

The Big Show / Re: What should I have in my Cattle First Aid kit?
« on: November 07, 2013, 02:26:00 PM »
Sandy,  you have to read through the bureaucracy of DLs post.   She has good intentions but reminds me of a Doc I had once who tried to prescribe Tylenol 3 post ACL surgery.  Why take a handful of Tylenol 3 if one Percocet will get ya where you're goin? Some Doc's subscribe to a theory that suggest the only way to avoid developing a tolerance or an antimicrobial resistance is to start at the bottom and work your way up.  For occasional use, AS OPPOSED TO REPEATED EXPOSE, this theory is overly-cautious and foolish as receptors will upgrade given time.

No one is concerned w/ the legality of ELDU.  Whether or not the manufacturer felt it was beneficial/profitable for THEM to assume the additional cost associated w/ getting the FDA to grant additional label use is completely irrelevant to whether or not the drug is safe and or effective in treating 'off label' ailments.    Make no mistake, labeled use exist to protect patents; not patients.   

I have an aerosol labeled for screw worms - It is very effective in treating/preventing maggots after dehorning.

Actually Ryan - you are wrong - the label - is designed to protect human health - both from violative residues and antibiotic resistance - whether or not it does is not the issue - drug use in cattle used to be a free for all - anything you want you got and used - but things are changing.

You should be concerned about ELDU if you raise cattle - you should be concerned about with hold times and dose and route - I am continuously amazed by what people think they know about drug use in cattle - are you aware that the withhold for Banamine given other than IV is NOT 4 days? That is is absolutely positively forbidden to use Baytril for anything but prevention or treatment of respiratory disease? That using more penicillin per dose than on the label is ELDU? That there are some drugs that ELDU is strictly and absolutely forbidden? That there are new restrictive rules on the use of the cephalosporins (Naxcel, Excenel, Exceed) and that these rules are the direct result of people including producers and veterinarians NOT following the label. Because this class of drugs is used in human medicine there was talk of taking them all off the market so they could not be used in cattle.

Not everything the FDA requires makes sense either scientifically or rationally but ELDU exists so that drugs not labeled for cattle can be used in times when their life is at stake, it doesn't exist to make your life complicated.

Don't think you are immune because you don't raise dairy - the FDA red list has beef cattle on it.

I don't make the rules and some of them are down right silly and without logic but I try to abide by them for myself and my clients - the cavalier handing out of cattle drug use on this site is generally by people who do not have a license at stake - if you have a prescription drug they you must have gotten it from a veterinarian (yes I know people get drugs from their neighbors) so it should be your veterinarian who provides you with guidance about how to use the drug - not a chat room

Not to pick on Sandy but she has dexamethasone, a prescription drug on hand, but she doesn't know what it is used for in cattle - (chances are if it is horse dex it is 4 mg/ml not cattle 2 mg/ml) - so here we have an rxed drug, but not rxed for this species, the owner doesn't know when to use it, the vet lives down the road, but the question is asked on a chat board not of the vet who rxed the drug - doesn't anyone else see a problem with this?  OK I've had enough - IMHO if you raise cattle you are raising food and you need to know and follow the rules and I know that many of you disagree and find these conversations ponderous

The Big Show / Re: What should I have in my Cattle First Aid kit?
« on: November 07, 2013, 12:36:18 PM »
Cattle, unlike horses in the US, are considered food animals and as food animals the use of drugs is regulated by the USDA. Therefore although you may have all these drugs for your horses, if none of the prescription drugs are labeled by your veterinarian for cattle - their use in cattle is illegal. The label must include (among other things) the dose, route of administration, duration of treatment and  the meat (and milk) withhold. Of the drugs you listed Ace, Banamine, Bute and SMZs are prescription drugs and if you use either Pen G or LA200 off label in cattle that use is illegal unless you follow the ELDU rules and AMDUCA. Furthermore, the use of Bute in cattle is strongly discouraged. You are raising food - know the rules regarding drug use in cattle

I am not exactly sure how to take your reply, its almost on the verge of insulting if you do not think I know the difference between horses and cattle. I also know the difference between prescription drugs and OTC ones as obviously the prescription drugs I got through my vet. On top of that, I have enough common sense and use my brain. I do not play with drugs or administer for the fun of it or without a chat with my vet first.

Take it any way you want to, but by asking the question and listing your drugs on hand it is clear that you don't know about ELDU and AMDUCA - if you chat with your vet first before administering drugs perhaps you should chat with your vet about what you should have in your first aid kit.

I agree with vc - you need to know your animals well enough to know what is normal and what is not - this may be the most important thing in your first aid kit. Cattle as prey animals spend their life trying to hide what ails them - so that often by the time an unobservant human thinks they. are sick - they are very sick. Next you need a thermometer. After that it depends on what you have and if they stay on the farm or head off to shows.

If your vet is truly down the street you might not want to spend the big bucks for w whole bottle of antibiotic for cattle - ask his/her advise about that as well as what you should use dex for. Just because you have a drug for horses doesn't mean it is safe or legal to use in cattle. Gentamicin is used frequently in horses - use is discouraged in cattle as it has an 18 MONTH slaughter with hold.

The use of antibiotics and other drugs in animals we raise for food is under huge scrutiny by the FDA as well as scientists and the lay press - if we do not follow the rules we stand to loose the ability to use many of the drugs that are important in treating our animals.  I just follow the rules - I don't make them

The Big Show / Re: What should I have in my Cattle First Aid kit?
« on: November 07, 2013, 06:25:21 AM »
Being new to the cattle I figure I best get a "must have" first aid kit for them. While I am lucky to have my vet just down the street I do a lot of my own basic vet work on my horses and have worked as a surgical Vet Tech so I have some good basic knowledge(with horses). I already have on hand: lots of different sized needles and syringes, suture materials, Iodine & Iodine Scrub, Gauze pads, telfa pads, vet wrap, Elastikon, thermometer, stethoscope, Penicillin, LA200, Ace, Banamine, Bute, Lidocaine, Probias and SMZ's. Not sure if some of this stuff applies to cattle?? Can someone give me a basic must have medications list to have on hand and what they are used for? Also if I am missing any supplies besides what I have listed and halters and ropes of various sizes.
Thank you!

Cattle, unlike horses in the US, are considered food animals and as food animals the use of drugs is regulated by the USDA. Therefore although you may have all these drugs for your horses, if none of the prescription drugs are labeled by your veterinarian for cattle - their use in cattle is illegal. The label must include (among other things) the dose, route of administration, duration of treatment and  the meat (and milk) withhold. Of the drugs you listed Ace, Banamine, Bute and SMZs are prescription drugs and if you use either Pen G or LA200 off label in cattle that use is illegal unless you follow the ELDU rules and AMDUCA. Furthermore, the use of Bute in cattle is strongly discouraged. You are raising food - know the rules regarding drug use in cattle

This is from an earlier post
For those of you unfamiliar with the rules governing the use of drugs in the animals we raise for food - incredible that you missed it  ;)

Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 12:06:29 PM
Quote from: GoWyo on March 09, 2012, 10:42:00 AM
JDM said it was a "sale heifer."  If it is one for sale, then there is a question of whether it is ethical to tranq it and not disclose to buyer that the animal goes nuts in the grooming chute.  That being said, with as many cattle as ACE has been used on it would seem that it has been thoroughly tested enough to pass AMDUCA and ELDU by now.  Have there ever been clinical studies on ACE in cattle?  Maybe it is the variability of dosage that prevents labeling for use in cattle.

DL, can you enlighten us on why ACE is not approved for cattle from a vet medicine standpoint rather than the legal labeling standpoint, which most people are aware of?

GOWYO The rules on drugs used for the animals we produce for food are complicated, unevenly enforced, and often not intuitively sensible. The vet med standpoint and the legal standpoint are pretty well intertwined.  Drugs approved for use in cattle have been tested, withhold and withdrawals determined, and efficacy assessed. Once they meet certain requirements they are approved for the specific species tested, for the route of administration, the dose and the conditions used. So if you look at Banamine it is not approved for pain management in cattle, but it is approved for for fever, if we use it for pain management technically we need to meet all the requirements for ELDU and AMDUCA. Since it is approved (for a different use) in cattle we know that if we give it in the approved manner (which happens to be IV) then we know exactly what the meat withhold is for the drug and we will not end up with violative residues.

The bottom line is that some drugs are approved for use in cattle - for example over the counter tetracycline - if it is used exactly according to the label there is no problem HOWEVER, if the farmer decides to increase the dose above the label does that falls under the Extra Label Drug Use policy (ELDU) which (by law) required certain things.

Any drug approved for use  in human or equine or canine etc that is not approved for use in cattle can only be used if the ELDU requirements are met  - medical grade DMSO, acepromazine, etc are NOT approved for use in cattle and therefor can only be used (legally) if ELDU requirements are met - you will note that drugs can be used only for therapeutic purposes (animal's health is suffering or threatened) - tranquilizing a heifer in a chute to clip her does not meet ELDU requirements and is therefor technically illegal.

ELDU is permitted only by or under the supervision of a veterinarian.
ELDU is allowed only for FDA approved animal and human drugs.
A valid Veterinarian/Client/Patient Relationship is a prerequisite for all ELDU.
ELDU for therapeutic purposes only (animal's health is suffering or threatened). Not drugs for production use.
Rules apply to dosage form drugs and drugs administered in water. ELDU in feed is prohibited.
ELDU is not permitted if it results in a violative food residue, or any residue which may present a risk to public health.
FDA prohibition of a specific ELDU precludes such use.

There are also record and label requirements


    Identify the animals, either as individuals or a group.
    Animal species treated.
    Numbers of animals treated.
    Conditions being treated.
    The established name of the drug and active ingredient.
    Dosage prescribed or used.
    Duration of treatment.
    Specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time(s), if applicable, for meat, milk, eggs, or animal-derived food.
    Keep records for 2 years.
    FDA may have access to these records to estimate risk to public health.


    Name and address of the prescribing veterinarian.
    Established name of the drug.
    Any specified directions for use including the class/species or identification of the animal or herd, flock, pen, lot, or other group; the dosage frequency, and route of administration; and the duration of therapy.
    Any cautionary statements.
    Your specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time for meat, milk, eggs, or any other food.

There are also drugs absolutely positively forbidden to be used in food animals (ie ELDU NOT ALLOWED)
Drugs Prohibited for Extralabel Use in Food Animals (Current as of June 2003. Check for updates on the FDA Web site at www.fda.gov/cvm)

    Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
    Other Nitroimidazoles
    Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
    Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
    Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
    Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
    Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)

I know people do it - that doesn't make it right.  I have heard the argument that we want to protect the kid or the public and I think it is bunk - I saw a tranquilized bull sleep through the sale - because the owner didn't want him to hurt anyone - IMHO he should have been burger.

You guys were all over Jody for his approach to youth and here you are teaching your kids to cheat and to use drugs that are illegal in food animals - we are producing food for human consumption - one would think that we would take the rules about drug use seriously - but apparently not when we might win a belt buckle.

Hope that clear it up a bit - it is a complicated, confusing conundrum and that doesn't even take into account the ethics of tranquilizing animals for show or sale

PS - don't shoot the messenger - I don't make the rules but I  abide by them



The Big Show / Re: Potential Heifer Buy. Thoughts?
« on: November 06, 2013, 06:04:00 PM »
Quote from: PinkOil Princess link=topic=4642[color=purple
2.msg392865#msg392865 date=1383753406]
This is one of a few heifers I am looking at in a sale this weekend and am wondering what your thoughts are on her. She is a registered Maintainer

I have bought heifers without seeing them BUT that was because a friend who knew what I wanted (and what I wanted to spend, and which lots I was interested in) was at the sale and saw the cattle. I would not buy based on an online picture

Re this heifer - I could be totally wrong but there is something about the picture that bothered me - her top line looks funny, in several places -  there is a shading on the top line right about the level of the last rib that shouldn't be there and that little divet where her neck meets her body - maybe it's just bad clipping, but I wouldn't buy anything from anybody if I thought they had "cleaned it up just a little" with anything but soap and water.  She seems awfully straight both front and rear - could be the picture, could be the clip job. In this picture she almost looks like a heifer put together by committee

edited - can't spell LOL

The Big Show / Re: Showing a Steer with Frozen Ears
« on: October 29, 2013, 12:08:34 PM »
We had a breeder call us to come and look at a steer he had raised, that had not been sold yet.  We drove up, and figured out why he was still there.

The steer had gotten his ears and tail frozen when he was a baby.  Ordinarily I would just pass, but this is a really good steer and he is bred the way we like them.  As far as confirmation and hair...this is probably the best one we would EVER afford because of his run-in with Mother Nature.

The tail I am not worried about.  We can put a fake tail on him and he will look fine.  The tail he has is long enough that the fake will hang below his twist and look natural.

The ears......he just looks funny. 

Has anyone ever showed one with frozen ears? 

Did it hurt him in the ring?

Did you try to fit his ears to minimize the issue?

Give me some input.  We are at a loss.

I don't know where you are, where the steer is or how old the steer is but when a steer loses both his ears and tail to frostbite one other consideration is his feet/legs - it is my understanding that at many sale barns calves with frozen ears and tails are seriously docked bc of potential other problems related to the original issue - just something to think about and maybe some of those from the frozen north can shed additional light on the issue

Re the cosmetic issue of the ears as they get hairier they look more normal and less spock like but they never will look totally normal

The Big Show / Re: Ulcer fix
« on: October 28, 2013, 06:34:57 PM »
We believe our steer has an ulcer.  We wormed him with safeguard today and will be giving him yogurt tonight.  I was reading through all of the old posts about ulcers and read where a couple of people recommended GastroGuard.  Has anyone else used it?  I'm curious if the dosage and treatment length is the same for cattle as it is for horses.  The cost made me take a deep breath, but we've invested so much in the project already I'm willing to try this if others have had really good results.

Please do not shoot the messanger
GastroGard (Omeprazole) is a prescription drug not approved for use in cattle. As such it is basically illegal to use unless you follow ELDU and AMDUCA. Belief that your steer has an ulcer is not a diagnosis which (among other things) is required for ELDU. Ulcers although common (and documented by endoscopy) in horses are relatively rare in cattle, and are most frequently seen in calves on milk, often caused by Clostiridium perfringes type A.  If you are worried about the steer (and you did not provide the reasons why you think this steer has an ulcer) call your veterinarian - if you are not that worried keep giving yogurt

The Big Show / Re: Low BW Angus bull to use on a Clubby Heifer
« on: October 26, 2013, 06:48:58 PM »

The Big Show / Re: Low BW Angus bull to use on a Clubby Heifer
« on: October 26, 2013, 01:48:40 PM »
Im looking for opinions on a good Angus bull with Low BW to use on my daughters heifer.  She is a Monopoly Money and Meyer 734/angus.  I am wanting a bull that could still produce a showy calf.

If you want a live calf and a live uncrippled heifer I would suggest that you focus on high accuracy CALVING EASE (CE) bulls - it is not the birth weight so much as the shape of the calf that is important - especially with clubby females who provide about 50% of the genetics of the calf - an 80 pound square calf (broad head, big shouldered, big boned, big hipped) is much more of a problem that an 80 pound long headed slim shouldered calf, long bodied calf) or put differently it is harder to get a square peg thru a round hole.

There are many high accuracy calving ease bulls of different breeds - I prefer Red Angus and have had excellent luck with Leachman Above & Beyond - he makes fabulous females, calves pop right out, get right up and aggressively teach the heifer what to do and they grow. Give your daughters heifer the best chance of a long career as a cow

This topic comes up repeatedly - you can search for other peoples opinions

The Big Show / Re: Help understanding catalogs? TH Free by pedigree?
« on: October 25, 2013, 05:28:36 PM »
This bull was an Improver mutation. His carrier mother was a great grand daughter of Deerpark Improver. I am pretty certain that this was a case of human error in the lab and had little to do with the actual accuracy of the test. We like to think that this will not happen, but when there is a human factor involved, mistakes can happen.

Yup if we eliminate the human the test is about as close to 100% accurate as you can get. I find it interesting that Improver is implicated in DS as well as TH

The Big Show / Re: Help understanding catalogs? TH Free by pedigree?
« on: October 25, 2013, 12:05:18 PM »

While testing mistakes are at a very low incidence, I am always gun shy and always do a second test on an animal if there is any carriers in the pedigree, especially if it is a bull I am going to promote.
I had a bad situation a few years ago, when I had a breeder wanting me to price a bull calf I had here. I would not price him as I knew his mother was a TH carrier, but I said if he was tested to be TH free, I would then price him. I sent the blood sample in, and the result was that this bull was TH free. I priced the bull and he was purchased by the people who had inquired in the first place. In some ways we were very fortunate, because this herd only had 1 TH carrier female and she was the second female to calve to this bull. She had a TH deformed calf. This was a devastating situation and I knew this bull had to have been a TH carrier for this to happen. He was the only bull on this farm, and there were no other bulls in the vicinity of this farm. When I contacted the lab that had done the testing, they told me there was no chance of the test being wrong, as they always ran a second test if there was any question, before they issued a test result to the owner. I had the bull owners send another sample to the lab for testing and the TH calf was taken to a vet college and was confirmed to be a TH calf. The bull tested as a TH carrier on the second test. The lab, after being threatened with a law suite by the bull owners, agreed to a settlement and the bull was sent to market. 
When I said we were fortunate, as if this TH Carrier cow had given birth to a normal calf, this bull could have sired many carriers for possibly several years, and no one would have possibly realized this. We were fortunate that the second calf born displayed the problem. I have heard of one other case of this happening, so I always do a second test if there is any possible chance.
The few carrier cows I have are used as recips, and only have a natural calf if they do not hold the embryo pregnancy. I see people routinely buying carrier females and I wonder if they understand what they are playing with. I can only hope they are diligent in doing proper testing.

JIT was this bull an Improver or Outcast mutation carrier? I remember at some time only the Improver deletion was routinely tested - did they tell you what the problem/issue was to incorrectly identify the status? ie clerical error, sampling error, etc

The Big Show / Re: Help understanding catalogs? TH Free by pedigree?
« on: October 25, 2013, 06:06:31 AM »
My understanding of "TH free by pedigree" is that it refers to a specific animal and EITHER refers to an individual (1) any if animal in the "close up" (defined differently by different breeds for different defects) is a carrier the animal between the THC and the individual is tested free OR (2) there is no one obvious in the pedigree that is a carrier (this I think is often used in sale catalogs)

Both assume that the pedigree is correct - which may or may not be the case.

So for example you have a grand son of DS out of an Angus cow - his sire tests negative for both PHA and TH - the calf is TH and PHA free by pedigree - of course you have to check the pedigree and testing status to figure this out, and in this example it doesn't say anything about the carrier status for potential defects in the Angus dam

The Big Show / Re: CAMILLA CHANCE 37T
« on: October 07, 2013, 01:56:43 PM »
SWMO: IMO from my experience in the majority of cases it costs less for the bull breeder to make it right with your neighbor and subsequently help him with selection than it will to test for every recessive gene that researchers find. theirs is a never ending search by people who mostly stayed in school to avoid adapting to a job in the real world and never learning the correlation between the world they chose and making a profit although these testing fees may be a step in that direction if they didn't ignore the cost vs benefit principle.

Really? You (generic) sell a bull based on his genetic merit - you expect to get (much) more that price by the pound because of genetic merit and you think spending 45 bucks to test for AM, NH and CA is less than the value of a dead calf and perhaps depending on the defect a dead or crippled cow. Why not do the right thing up front and sell bulls free of known genetic defects?

And BTW you (specific) clearly don't understand how this works - Dr B begins looking for mutations when the level of phenotypic abnormailty reaches a frequency where there is concern that it might be a genetic condition causing the problem. We the breeders and veterinarians bring him the issue and he (and BR) identify the mutation - they don't spend their life looking under every tree and bush for mutated genes - they are performing a service for us and I for one am grateful. The Missouri approach is a little different as they are looking at all the genes of some number of bulls with the notion that perhaps these combinations of alleles might (for example) increase fertility, or ADG, or marbling or whatever

I also think your notion that they don't understand the real world shows your lack of understanding of the application of genetic research - if you expect that some day all genetics are "dirty" then (a) you really don't get it and (b) I suspect that would also be the end of the human race - "dirty genes" don't just affect cattle

The Big Show / Re: CAMILLA CHANCE 37T
« on: October 07, 2013, 01:01:29 PM »
One of my neighbors runs a small commercial herd of black cows.  These cows are angus based and he bought a simm/angus bull to use on them.  This fall he had a hydra calf that had to be c sectioned out.  When asked he was not aware of the genetic issues that are cropping up in the angus and angus based breeds.

THAT is why ALL purebred breeders should care.  Especially if you are marketing black genetics.  These commercial guys sometimes aren't aware of these issues until they crop up in their herds. 

Do you think hewill be wild about purchasing another black bull?  Especially if he has anymore issues with genetics?

Just My opinion.

YUP and amen - seems to me that back in 2006 when TH and PHA reared their ugly heads some of us made some noise about just this thing, and we continued to make noise with AM, NH, OS, MA, IE etc etc  - people don't know, they don't understand and the seed stock producers are dumping carriers on unsuspecting commercial cattlemen - as I recall some of us took a great deal of flack - that approach just might bit the breeder, the association or the breed in the butt

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