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Offline btcc

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Extra Special
« on: June 01, 2014, 07:28:09 PM »
Is this bull from rodgers registered with AMAA, I would like to see the extended pedigree on this guy.

Offline Mainevent

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 07:46:36 PM »
No he is not.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over? - John Wooden

Offline btcc

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 08:12:38 PM »
Do you know the lineage on his breeding, does the maine in his pedigree go back to bulls like pistol Pete, power plant, polled energizer, polleroid, ice pick or is he a total outcross?

Offline Mainevent

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 08:27:49 PM »
That would be a question for wade but he may send you to airhart. That's how a lot of those airhart calves are they just are airhart # then a breed they are.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over? - John Wooden

Offline cbcr

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2014, 08:08:16 PM »
Why is it that with many of the Club Calf cattle their are so many holes in the pedigrees?  It seems mostly that the dams of these cattle are listed only as DONOR DAM and a number, but then it is mentioned about how wonderful this cow is.  It would seem that if information is not kept or recorded on these animals, their ancestry will eventually be lost, and to us that would be a shame.  Not only that, but what about future progeny out of these cows and their offspring, wouldn't they be worth more if they had pedigrees and the parentage was known?

As the Composite Beef Cattle Registry, we recently registered a heifer calf for a Junior Member, that was sired by a bull that Wade Rogers owns, "CROWD FAVORITE 1".  All that we have seen anywhere on this bull is that he is sired by HEAT WAVE and out of a cow listed as THONE Y.

We strive to offer and provide as complete a pedigree as possible, because we do not like blanks and holes in a pedigree.  We did some research, and "CROWD FAVORITE 1" we discovered that his dam is a registered Charolais.  So we have a completed bottom side to his pedigree with his dams pedigree information. 

Offline btcc

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 10:37:40 PM »
In my opinion it simply comes down to marketing. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of these mystery donors have pedigrees stacked with club calf and linebred heateaker genetics. Anyone that has bred a large number of heavily crossbred clubby bulls knows that the consistency just isn't there and in my opinion when you double up on the heatwave/heat seeker genetics you suck the substance right out of them. I don't know about the rest of you but one of the biggest turnoffs in my opinion is a pedigree with a heatwave/ heatwave son on the top with the same thing on the bottom. Rather than represent the maternal side of the bull as it truthfully is the dam is stamped with the title " famous donor cow 123" and it immediately catches the attention of the consumer. Rather than have these bulls critiqued on their pedigrees they want them judged on their apparent phenotype represented in their photoshopped display pictures, and what do you get from those pictures D**k all.


Offline cbcr

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 01:03:27 PM »
This may be true in some cases, but, like the bull that I mentioned "CROWD FAVORITE 1" his dam was a Charlolais that has supposed to have produced some other outstanding offspring and is still producing.

Could it be that some of these people have bred their cow for a club calf but then are too embarrassed to provide information on the dam?  Or are their other factors, such as genetic defects in their pedigrees, that if the identity of these dams were known it would hurt sales of semen and offspring?

We had spoke to one bull owner who has some bulls that aren't registered and his comment was, "that he didn't need to register his bulls because people would buy semen on them anyway just because of who he is." (referring to the owner of the bull).

What if breeders of registered animals felt this way as well?  What if one of the top Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, Maine Anjou or Simmental breeders decided that they could sell semen just on their name alone and no longer needed to bother with registering their animals.  What problems would this cause?



Online hntwhitetail

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 03:18:29 PM »
In reference to Crowd Favorite 1.  HE is a HW x Thorne Y23.  Here is a link:

http://www.clubcalves.com/thornecattlegenetics.htm

Offline cbcr

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 06:38:27 PM »
That is just it,  if she is such a good cow ( and this also applies to other bulls and animals in the Club Calf Industry ) why is it that this is all that she is referred to?

It says that she was the Grand Champion of the Jr. Show in Denver in 2002 and that she has produced 4 offspring so far that have averaged almost $9,000 each.

This cow by no means is a slouch, but why is anything else about her never given and she is only referred to as the Thorne Y23 cow?

Like I mentioned in earlier emails, when we registered the Club Calf for a Junior Member, we found out the information and have the pedigree on the cow along with her registration number and her pedigree info.

Not only with this bull but with most of the Club Calf bulls, is the pedigree not important?

Offline Mainevent

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 06:42:59 PM »
Because having short name monikers for these cattle it is easier to refer to them as. Instead of constantly posting their pedigree with everyone if their calves.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over? - John Wooden

Offline GoWyo

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 07:01:07 PM »
We have a couple of cows that have thrown spastic paresis and monkey mouth - genetic defects for which there is no test available.  We choose to breed these cows conservatively avoiding Power Plant and other known or suspected carriers of these defects.  A dam of a promo bull called "Joe's Donor 123" does not help show what all might be lurking around back in the genetic profile.  I usually try to look at the dam side even more critically than I do the sire side and it is a bummer to have only one generation back if that.
May you always have cows around . . . ~ Corb Lund

Stop the violins -- visualize whirled peas

Offline cbcr

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 07:40:35 PM »
Short names may be easier, but with the internet etc, that should not be an excuse.  It is easy to put a link to a bulls complete pedigree, especially a bull owners website.

Doing so would have a definite advantage because this would create increased exposure for the bull which could lead to more semen sales.

With all of the genetic abnormalities that are known, and yes there are many that have yet to be discovered, with many of the extended pedigrees not mentioned or anything on the Club Calf bulls is it just a buyer beware situation?

Yes, many have been tested for TH and PHA, but what else may be unknown?

Offline btcc

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 08:11:04 PM »
We have a couple of cows that have thrown spastic paresis and monkey mouth - genetic defects for which there is no test available.  We choose to breed these cows conservatively avoiding Power Plant and other known or suspected carriers of these defects.  A dam of a promo bull called "Joe's Donor 123" does not help show what all might be lurking around back in the genetic profile.  I usually try to look at the dam side even more critically than I do the sire side and it is a bummer to have only one generation back if that.
I totally agree, The dam is the foundation in which each bull is built from. That's why I think all of these bull promoters should be held more accountable. The clubby industry would prosper more if we avoided these simple lies. Pedigree info, birth weights and date of birth should all be represented truthfully.

Offline ejoe326

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Re: Extra Special
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 11:11:31 PM »
Rather than a cover up or deceit sometimes it is possible to flat out not know. 

I can think of people I have known off the top of my head that have bred a cow and they do not know where the cow originated, she came out of the sale barn and someone got lucky, sometimes the straw used does not get written down, several ear tags were lost and it's a guess which one she belonged to, and sometimes someone dies and all of the records were in his or her head.

Obviously it would be best to know more about each cow.  But sometimes there are honest mistakes without anyone trying to hide a thing.


 

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