11 out of 13

Of the 13 herd bulls I have had since 1973 this guy has 11 of them in his pedigree.The two that missed out were homebreds with similar pedigrees.

looks like a nice bull.


you better make some more homebreds.

Good looking bull!  That is a good example of why I advocate for deeds Toca producers to use their own genetics when possible.

r.n.reed said:

Of the 13 herd bulls I have had since 1973 this guy has 11 of them in his pedigree.The two that missed out were homebreds with similar pedigrees.

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A very good looking bull!  The breed and the beef industry needs more like this guy.  Congrats on producing him!

I remember when I was very young, I listened to a well known breeder at the time talking to my dad, and he said a successful breeder should never be afraid to use genetics he has produced in his own herd. He said many breeders in that era always purchased a new herd sire rather than use something they had produced in their own herd. New genetics have to be added from time to time, but if you know everything about the bull you have produced from his birth to the present day, some of the risk is eliminated. I have always remembered what he said and In my herd, it has proven to be very true. Some of the best breeding bulls I have had, were bulls I produced by combining the best sires and dams I had in my herd.

What bull is pictured?

I value your comments everyone.JIT, I don't know why more established breeders don't use their own bulls as well.I would imagine marketing is a big part of it but why not build your own unique product.It sure hasn't hurt herds in Canada that follow that practice.I also agree that the proper outcross from time to time is necessary.
Matt the bull pictured is the Frontline bull who is now 6 years old.Another interesting fact about his pedigree is that he traces to my original foundation female on both sides of his pedigree.
Matt I also have to ask you what a deeds TOCA producer is?

What would you expect the drawbacks and benefits to be of putting Hilldale Commander back on Frontline bred females?
Short of that, Muridale Hero 31Z or the Hero bull behind him?
This as a method of reaching back to reinforce lower bw and more character.

librarian said:

What would you expect the drawbacks and benefits to be of putting Hilldale Commander back on Frontline bred females?
Short of that, Muridale Hero 31Z or the Hero bull behind him?
This as a method of reaching back to reinforce lower bw and more character.

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It would be interesting to try the cross but at the same time I think we sometimes let nostalgia drive our decisions. My guess is Frontline has as many or more years of careful breeding in his pedigree than many of the old time bulls. I have and probably will continue to add older bulls to my program but I think one needs to be mindful that you can lose as much as you gain in a lot of instances! I would be more inclined to use one of the Muridale descendants of Bonnyview Hero 7Z where the blending of past and present has been successfully accomplished.

Okotoks, this gets to the root of my question.
I have neither the ways not means to be a true breeder, but I do have abiding interest.
Looking at the Galbreath catalog I see lot of Native genetics being reintroduced to the mix.
A bull like Frontline, representative not of individuals combined, but of successive recombinations, presents breeding questions not raised by less deliberate pedigrees.
So, if we bypass many dilutions of a concentrated ancestor- Aluana Collynie, for instance and reintroduce a strong shot, perhaps this is one step backward and two steps forward. Always looking forward to the next mating.
Our breed is similar to a house that has had (too) many renovations, and stripping the layers of avocado paint to restore the clear grain of the old woodwork is not so much a labor of nostalgia as much as an act of recovery. We might add back Scotch in order to redilute it with neo-Native dual genetics-minus the paintjobs in between.
My own take on our present position is that the breed is under practical reconstruction- which pieces do we burn and which maintain?

Hes a cool looking bull-what do you think he wieghs? I havent been able to see that type on the loving cattle in person-but it should be a good mix- linebred Enticerxperformance cattle x your linebred cattle.To each his own, I think he could be used on alot of different cattle O0

librarian said:

Okotoks, this gets to the root of my question.
I have neither the ways not means to be a true breeder, but I do have abiding interest.
Looking at the Galbreath catalog I see lot of Native genetics being reintroduced to the mix.
A bull like Frontline, representative not of individuals combined, but of successive recombinations, presents breeding questions not raised by less deliberate pedigrees.
So, if we bypass many dilutions of a concentrated ancestor- Aluana Collynie, for instance and reintroduce a strong shot, perhaps this is one step backward and two steps forward. Always looking forward to the next mating.
Our breed is similar to a house that has had (too) many renovations, and stripping the layers of avocado paint to restore the clear grain of the old woodwork is not so much a labor of nostalgia as much as an act of recovery. We might add back Scotch in order to redilute it with neo-Native dual genetics-minus the paintjobs in between.
My own take on our present position is that the breed is under practical reconstruction- which pieces do we burn and which maintain?

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Interesting comment here librarian!

For what it is worth Kathy I have a couple of calves due this fall crossing Hilldale Commander and Cherry Fillets mother.

I misspelled Alauna...need some grammar gloss.
Beebe- we think a lot alike. Pondering the different half sib bulls from Maid of Promise 189 got me thinking about the pedigrees from Seven T's and how well that had apparently worked with Scotch on Defender. The Scotch as a catalyst - looks like not much is needed to instigate a measurable reaction.
Cherry Filet is a favorite of mine.

I thought it might be Frontline. Deeds Toca producer is what you get with predictive text and not re-reading before you post.  It should have said breeders to, I have no clue how it produced what it did.  Do you have semen available on frontline?

This is a good conversation on breeding programs.We could write a book on this and barely scratch the surface.When I consider adding an outcross the first priority is what traits that animal will bring to the table to either reinforce or improve the traits of my herd.I prefer to not use total out crossses and of the 13 herd bulls only 2 were what I would call a complete outcross.I am always looking ahead and have several old bulls in the tank including the 2 Hilldale bulls. I would give them a try if I felt they could add some real world value to my herd beyond what is happening now.
Mark my educated guess is 2200.
Matt I am sorry to say there is no semen collected.It is on my list.

librarian said:

I misspelled Alauna...need some grammar gloss.
Beebe- we think a lot alike. Pondering the different half sib bulls from Maid of Promise 189 got me thinking about the pedigrees from Seven T's and how well that had apparently worked with Scotch on Defender. The Scotch as a catalyst - looks like not much is needed to instigate a measurable reaction.
Cherry Filet is a favorite of mine.

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Correction.  The Commander calves are out of a different cow.  I confused them with KC Clipper Duke calf.

Well Gary, you've got time I don't start breeding again until December.  I Like the conversation in this post as well.  I think I agree that we regard older genetics as the answer to all our current frustrations. However,  we may make more progress with sons crossed with modern genetics aso suggested earlier.  I like to bring in new genetics from bulls that have daughters in production as this gives me a better understanding of what to expect.  If there is nothing new or complimentary then I continue to use my own bulls.

:-\From beebe:Correction.  The Commander calves are out of a different cow.  I confused them with KC Clipper Duke calf.

Not to digress, because I don't consider this a total digression from the breeding and philosophy behind Frontline...
You put the Clipper bull on the dam of Cherry Filet? So this is very like an old 7T strategy?
And what did you put Commander on?

For rn, of the 13 herd sires you have used, how many went to Milking Shorthorn within 3 generations?
I think the old Milking Shorthorn is a component we should not let slip away.
I see the advantage of breeding your own bulls to be the ability to hand sort sort the cows in the pedigree. Using something as deeply bred as Frontline is a way to grip the accuracy that is so slippery with outcross bulls.
When a bull like Frontline is the outcross, my question would be how to employ that history of cow selection to ratchet up maternal question marks in old genetics. With one cross, any cow will produce a calf that inherits 50% of a lifetime of Kaper selection. Then what?
Where do we take cows like that to restore optimal commercial performance in their daughters?
Not to rebreed clones of any particular program, but to blend gene pools related something like 12.5%- 25% top and bottom.

You are making me do my homework Librarian.Of the 13,9 had at least one pure dual individual at the third generation.Interesting to me is that early on they were pure dual then 1/2 to 3/4 then nothing showing on the pedigree and then blended through out the pedigree and a little higher percentage than their immediate predecessors in the herd.Also of interest is the fact that my first and last purchased bulls were Haumont bulls.Both of these bulls carried about 50% of the old Defender breeding that was basically of the same foundation that the polled beef strain developed from.
I am assuming you are talking a purebred herd with your second question and would say there are two options to fix type and traits.First would be to use a son out of one of your homebred cows that comes closest to your production ideals on his 1/2 sisters.Second would be to find a bull of similar type that comes from a herd with similar type cattle with a reliable multi generational focused program behind it.And to your point if there is some similarity in approach and pedigree, the results should be more predictable.It is important to note we are talking seedstock here.If your herd is geared to commercial production you need to be crossbreeding.

Then one doesn't need to look too far to find complimentary (Shorthorn) bulls to meet the requirements you laid out.
We live in a great time, with the advantages of reproductive and genomic technology and the ability to communicate the experience of at least a half century of individual animals and breeders.
Ever the idealist, when I ask,
Where do we take cows like that to restore optimal commercial performance in their daughters?
I include replacement capability in the meaning of optimal commercial cow. My thought is we do not have the luxury to produce dead end cattle of either gender. We have to breed production and reproduction.