65% of the Shorthorn breeds current design is based on show heifers.

I was talking to a person today who argued that 65% of the Shorthorn breeds excitement, investment, and unofficial mission statement is grounded on the base of breeders selling 5,000-15,000$ show heifers to non agricultural producer buyers. It made sense to me. She said that 80% of the Shorthorn youth program was simply a expansion of adult breeders bleeding over into that arena. In 2016 is that a reasonable statement? 

water is wet

After literally years of complaining on Steerplanet, Aj has never produced anything for the shorthorn breed.


Is that a reasonable statement?

I really could not care less if this was true. We all raise Shorthorns ( or cattle of any breed) for a definite reason and if you want to produce show cattle, all I have to say is more power to you. I have come to the conclusion that people who dwell on this stuff are only using it for a crutch or an excuse for their own breeding program not getting ahead. Quite frankly, you can do whatever you want to do with your own breeding program. You do not have to follow the crowd and if you feel that most in the breed are heading in the wrong direction, I would think that would be a great incentive for you to get your butt in gear and produce some awesome cattle that are being demanding in the real beef industry. I know there are lots and lots of producers that have no interest or very little interest in the show ring, so these people need a place to source genetics for their breeding programs. There is a considerable market waiting for someone to design good useful real world breeding stock, yet I see so few actually doing something about it. The ones that do the most complaining are usually the ones that have no goals and no motivation to improve their own herds.

I have never understood why so many people complain about what the breed association does or doesn't do. If your success is going to be based on what your breed association is going to do for you, well you are going to have a long miserable time in that breed. Your success is based on what YOU do and no one else.

This afternoon, I received another phone call from a guy wanting to buy a Shorthorn bull. I am sold out,except for a bull I have kept for a back-up in case a herd bull gets hurt. This guy said, that he had never used a Shorthorn bull before but when he talks with his neighbors, Shorthorns are almost always talked about favorably. I see the interest in this breed slowly getting stronger over the past few years and I think it will continue to get better. It will be what the breeders do that determines how this plays out far more than what the breed association could ever do. I would suggest the time has come for everyone to quit complaining and get busy improving your own herd and not worry about what other breeders are doing.

I recently wrote an editorial in the Canadian Shorthorn Report in which I referenced a conversation I had with one of the largest cattle buyers in this part of the world. He predicted that Shorthorns ( and he mentioned one other breed) could be entering the best years they have had in history. He said that he hears cattlemen and feedlot managers, oftentimes saying that they are liking many of the Shorthorns they are seeing today. He also put a caveat on his comment, when he said, that the level of success this breed has in the future will depend totally on how its breeders react to this trend. It will have far more to do with the breeders than it will the cattle themselves. I could not agree more with what he said.

There is room for everyone, to do whatever they want, in any breed. Pick the market you want to produce cattle for and plan your breeding program accordingly. Success is not just based on the banners hanging in your office or barn. Personally, I think success is based on seeing cattle you planned and raised, going out and doing a good job for your customers. But so many find it so much easier to B**ch and moan about what someone else is doing ... or not doing!

OLD WORLD SHORTIE said:

water is wet

Click to expand...

So is aj.

I think this is a valid topic to discuss and if we shy away from discussing issues like this then we will never progress as a breed in the beef industry. Many people who breed cattle as a hobby do so without a deeper understanding of the cattle industry as a whole and what the cattle industry demands in a beef animal. In the Shorthorn breed we have a lot of hobby breeders and many of them start out showing as youth and then when they get kids they get some Shorthorns. They then start to have a passion for the breed for multiple reasons and grow their numbers a little. Maybe they never get the chance to really dive into the ins and outs of the cattle industry and learn what is optimal and what is unacceptable in the commercial world. Maybe they don't care to think about it. That is there choice. I believe leaders will not only show others with their actions and breeding choices but also have the courage to say what needs to be said. When an advertisement went out in a multi breed commercial publication, the Ohio Cattleman's Magazine, claiming "Shorthorns, Proficient in the Show Ring". I spoke up about it. I felt it was my duty as a breeder and a delegate to say something about it. It's our breed image that is at stake and I believe we need to make sure that it is moving towards alignment with the BEEF industry first and the hobby industry will stem from there on out.

I think the 35% remainder figure is encouraging.
I think it would be interesting to know if that 35% had a common vision for a commercially viable Shorthorn gene pool. There is probably a good argument for diversification within those breeding programs between terminal and maternal. Looking ahead, we should be breeding our own Rito vs Emulation outcross counterparts, and saving closed herd strains analogous to Wye etc.

How many aj's does it take to screw in a light bulb?


0, they are waiting for someone else to do it.

Help me with a list of outcross candidate bloodlines...we can think constructively
Leader
Defender

I want to see where these numbers came from, with legitimate sources. If someone just plain pulled them out of a hat then we could just as well discuss why 90% of shorthorn bulls are purchased by commercial guys... Percentages/statistics mean nothing without a valid source.

If you're simply asking us if the percentages you heard seem fair, then I'll say yes, it does seem like about 65% or more of the breed is focused on heifers, but not necessarily on show heifers being sold to "non ag producers". But we are a historically maternal breed. And I'm going to say no, 80% of the Junior program is not focused on adults pushing expensive show cattle down the throats of new members. Do the expensive cattle win? Usually, yes. Do kids want to win? Usually, yes. Is the Junior program all about winning at the big shows? No. Jr. Nationals is several days long, with only 1 or 2 dedicated to showing. The rest is leadership development, networking, and having a good time participating in cattle related activities with kids from around the country with similar interests. It is educating kids on the values of a solid work ethic, and through the extensive fitting that is allowed, a showman that is willing to put in the work every morning and night to grow hair doesn't need to buy a super expensive show calf, they just need an eye for potential and a lot of elbow grease. The kids are educated on how to win with a low budget calf, but many of them simply want to buy their way to the top.

To other commenters, I've read the initial thread multiple times, and can't find any hint that AJ was using the stats to complain or put down the breed. He's simply asking if we think the stats he heard sound fair. He's doing his research to try and find out the validity of something someone else said. I know he has a history of complaining about the association, but he didn't do that on this thread. Try not to jump down his throat so fast.

To other commenters, I've read the initial thread multiple times, and can't find any hint that AJ was using the stats to complain or put down the breed. He's simply asking if we think the stats he heard sound fair. He's doing his research to try and find out the validity of something someone else said. I know he has a history of complaining about the association, but he didn't do that on this thread. Try not to jump down his throat so fast.
[/quote]


I was not taking aim at aj in my comments. He just happened to hit a nerve in me, as I continually hear people complain about what the breed association is or is not doing. It is as if they cannot function if the breed association doesn't do things the way they want things done.
I spent many years on the boards of the breed associations and for many years they were a big chunk of my life. My life and my own success has been much better since I quit the boards and decided to just do what I thought was best with my herd. Breed associations are there for a few good reasons 1) to maintain the breed registry 2) to make the rules under which all breeders must live by, and 3) provide support to breeders through general breed improvement programs. There are also a few other more minor things they have to do, but I guess what I am trying to say is that the rest of what each breeder produces is up to them to do. The breed association is not there to help you promote and sell the cattle you produce. That is the job of every one of us who raise these critters.
I agree with what shortybreeder has said here, but I wanted to make it clear that my comments were not a personal attack on aj.

librarian said:

Help me with a list of outcross candidate bloodlines...we can think constructively
Leader
Defender

Click to expand...

If you want outcross practical grass based cattle, I have to include the Albaugh cattle.

AJs point is valid, and he is just looking at opinions. A change is in order,and there ARE changes in effect which include the show ring cattle. As long as mere mortals can access bulls like Hot commodity or sons of Red Demand or Red Reward than those show hiefers are going to be a step in the right direction-SO: are the daughters of:Waukru,Lauer, Galbreath, Jungels, the Montana cattle,Loving, Caper, Canadians, Jazzes (Sultan and Tabasco are DS free),the A and T descendents etc-These cattle will be more efficient all the way around and result from people becoming informed-therefore having the common sense not to kill a 1st calver-and or not to believe the BS EPDS of alot of the cattle-where the association basicaly stepped in:and said enuff is enuff. The breed has a bad reputation for hard calving hard doing cattle-and DESERVES IT. Newbes can go online and get some of the LATEST APRIL info from the Shorthorn Country below-Although it looks like the powers that be are targeting other facets of agriculture-JUST LOOK AT THEM TURKEYS in the LATEST issue.They look like a new strain the way they overshadow the cattle in the background O0

The show industry is what it is and it isn't changing.  Ever. 


Shorthorns just don't have a substantial commercial base.


It's up to people like aj to expand it.


Past performance tells us that this will never happen.


Aj is merely restating over and over the same issue.


He hates the show industry and especially the people in it,  and there is no other outlet to sell his crossbreed shorthorn influence cattle with the same ease to commercial cattle operators as easily as angus.


If selling to commercial operators is his issue, there are only two things to do.


1. Switch breeds, hide color, but we know he will just complain about the show industry no matter what segment he is in.


2. Produce something, but again, we know he won't. He took a carrier to Denver while complaining that others do it.


It's time for aj to do something different instead of literally everyone else doing what he wants them to do using their own assets instead of his.

Yikes......just tuned back in. I wonder how the Simmental breed's internal focus is delegated. Do they move many bulls currently? Gelbvieh, Limousin, Salers etc.. When sexed semen is sold isn't the prefered sex female? Wheras say a large semen company may sell more sexed semen for bulls........in a terminal commercial herd because bull calves normally bring more dollars. Or is sexed semen in the Shorthorn breed used on 1st calf heifers to help their first birthing process. I know a angus guy(commercial) who likes to use sexed semen on his 1st calf heifers. People are always on this board asking what bull to use on heifers........heifer sexed semen may me a heck of a good start but I spose its expensive......I don't know.

and thanks for the support knabe.

Isn't the cover of the latest issue a YY pair? If so, I think the functional, commercial, maternal emphasis is getting plenty of exposure. If people choose to breed for other traits then that's their privilege.
As to representing aj as the Anti- Trump... That's probably fair in Shorthorn terms.

I don't think I've ever made better cattle for either the show ring or the commercial cattlemen than I am right now, and we're using Red Reward, Red Demand, Hot Commodity, and Deception almost exclusively.

Best two calves I've ever had born are a fall 2015 Deception and an early 2016 Red Demand. Small at birth, growthy, very easy doing, great feet, and look like a million bucks.

Some of these show cattle are actually pretty good animals if you look around a little.

Can't stress enough that Shorthorn breeders need to use bulls like Deception and Red Demand.

knabe said:

The show industry is what it is and it isn't changing.  Ever. 


Shorthorns just don't have a substantial commercial base.


It's up to people like aj to expand it.


Past performance tells us that this will never happen.


Aj is merely restating over and over the same issue.


He hates the show industry and especially the people in it,  and there is no other outlet to sell his crossbreed shorthorn influence cattle with the same ease to commercial cattle operators as easily as angus.


If selling to commercial operators is his issue, there are only two things to do.


1. Switch breeds, hide color, but we know he will just complain about the show industry no matter what segment he is in.


2. Produce something, but again, we know he won't. He took a carrier to Denver while complaining that others do it.


It's time for aj to do something different instead of literally everyone else doing what he wants them to do using their own assets instead of his.

Click to expand...

C'mon Knabe, you are becoming personal again!
Good debate is dependent on an open dialogue and you are closing it down, let bygones be bygones for the sake of a good forum. Please don't repeatedly dredge up old old axes to grind with a poster, this is a completely new topic.
If aj was not successful he would have been out of business a long time ago. Judging by his photograph he must be a few years older than me and he is still in business, that speaks for itself!
JMO

Duncraggan said:

C'mon Knabe, you are becoming personal again!
Good debate is dependent on an open dialogue and you are closing it down, let bygones be bygones for the sake of a good forum. Please don't repeatedly dredge up old old axes to grind with a poster, this is a completely new topic.
If aj was not successful he would have been out of business a long time ago. Judging by his photograph he must be a few years older than me and he is still in business, that speaks for itself!
JMO

Click to expand...

it's not personal.  the facts have never changed.  AJ grinds his axe, show industry, saying how the breed should change but never producing anything. it's an open dialogue.  bash the show industry. get asked how you are resolving the issue.  every time, there is nothing. it doesn't change. that is open dialogue.  asking the same question over and over with different words, disguised as being different, doesn't change the facts. AJ can't stand the show industry, doesn't have purebred shorthorns, every so often switches breeds, but never supporting the breed by purchasing shorthorns and creating a herd that he thinks the breed should change direction to. those are the facts. it's not personal. it just is. that aj can continually survive in that environments speaks for itself.  it's time for AJ to change, not the show industry.


there is absolutely noting wrong with the breed wanting to focus on show heifers. there simply aren't enough people out there proving they have some other utility. AJ could start with himself.  that is constructive criticism and is not personal.  shorthorns blew it a while ago, angus took advantage of their mistakes along with herefords and are now in the position that shorthorns were in.


my comments are strictly focused on the best way for AJ to change the breed is to actually do something himself. to date, i don't think we've seen anything close to a focus on purebred shorthorns that excel in a commercial environment that are displacing black angus sales. if he did, we would be hearing about it rather than constantly wanting everyone else to change with what is obviously profitable for them. i could be wrong, but it doesn't make sense to have a shorthorn herd, infuse maine's, then red angus then whatever. there are plenty of shorthorn breeders that are doing a great job. aj could purchase some animals from them and put his money where his mouth is and change the breed. but no, he continually disguises personal comments regarding those who choose to participate in the show industry, who, lets be honest, if they weren't there, shorthorns would probably be almost extinct in the US as there is not enough people like aj wants everyone else but him to change things. again, aj could show his support by buying some purebreds and doing something. but no, we can't have an open discussion about that, instead, we must bash the show industry.