65% of the Shorthorn breeds current design is based on show heifers.

cb4 · Apr 22, 2016

-XBAR- said:
Olson Family Shorthorns said:

Semantics.

So what is your definition of a real Shorthorn? Is anything with Irish or Scotch heritage out?

Click to expand...

To me, it's not so much what's in the pedigree as it is how close up the infusion really is. A purebred's value lies in the assumption that the animal has a stabilized genotype and thus breeds true. Bulls like Red Reward are crossbreds and lack the concentration of like-genetics I'm looking for. When a commercial cattlemen purchases a bull, he wants a reasonable high level of assurance that his calfcrop will actually inherit the characteristics he sees expressed in the herdsire he selected. With crossbred or mongrel bulls, because of both the phenotypical and genotypical variation in their immediate pedigree, theyre not going to provide you with the level of consistency wanted. Some offspring will revert back to the sire, some to the grandsire, some to other various ancestry. Take Red Demand for example: the calves that revert to HAA Contender will be quite different than those who revert to KL 6294. A fundamental rule: the more variation in the pedigree, the more variation in the offspring.

When considering the pedigrees of these bulls I had a similar idea to you, these bulls will lack consistency. When it comes to epds, however these bulls are quite impressive for the breed. Do you not think with consistent breeding of these sires you could form a line which perpetuate their characteristics consistently?

knabe · Apr 22, 2016

aj said:
Brock.........I might throw this out there. If any registered Shorthorn is a th carrier.......a automatic 10% purity is added to their pedigree. If they are a ds carrier another 10% purity would be administered. Pha would not be a player in this program since that is a Maine Anjou. So if you have a non asterisk cow that is a th and ds carrier........she would be considered to be 120% pure.......and if mated to 80% pure bull.....the resulting calf would be a 100%.....non asterisk pedigree calf. If a calf is black......a automatic 10% would be subtracted from the %. I would hope that the national directors at least consider this protocol. I may call Marty and see if we could get this on the next meetings agenda. This way.....a black Shorthorn could never be registered at more than 90%. signed......Wilford Sorghum.

you described your herd to a tee. that maintainer bull qualifies.

knabe · Apr 22, 2016

librarian said:
I agree, the breed is extremely heterozygous- how to tighten it up will always be a matter of conflicting interests.

this quote is irrelevant without units.

mark tenenbaum · Apr 22, 2016

knabe said:
aj said:

Brock.........I might throw this out there. If any registered Shorthorn is a th carrier.......a automatic 10% purity is added to their pedigree. If they are a ds carrier another 10% purity would be administered. Pha would not be a player in this program since that is a Maine Anjou. So if you have a non asterisk cow that is a th and ds carrier........she would be considered to be 120% pure.......and if mated to 80% pure bull.....the resulting calf would be a 100%.....non asterisk pedigree calf. If a calf is black......a automatic 10% would be subtracted from the %. I would hope that the national directors at least consider this protocol. I may call Marty and see if we could get this on the next meetings agenda. This way.....a black Shorthorn could never be registered at more than 90%. signed......Wilford Sorghum.

Click to expand...

you described your herd to a tee. that maintainer bull qualifies./// A\So does your cow-now you can run an ad in the YEARLY TURKEY ISSUE of the SHOERHORN COUNTRY O0

aj · Apr 22, 2016

The High Plains Journal is used by the Lovings and Dean Fieser out here in our part of the world. It reaches a lot of people. The Kansas Livestock assc has a monthly magazine that reaches alot of people. I would that these devices are a better buy for advertising out here Mark. The Kansas Shorthorn assc puts ads in the KLA mag as a group.

RyanChandler · Apr 22, 2016

cb4 said:
-XBAR- said:

Olson Family Shorthorns said:

Semantics.

So what is your definition of a real Shorthorn? Is anything with Irish or Scotch heritage out?

Click to expand...

To me, it's not so much what's in the pedigree as it is how close up the infusion really is. A purebred's value lies in the assumption that the animal has a stabilized genotype and thus breeds true. Bulls like Red Reward are crossbreds and lack the concentration of like-genetics I'm looking for. When a commercial cattlemen purchases a bull, he wants a reasonable high level of assurance that his calfcrop will actually inherit the characteristics he sees expressed in the herdsire he selected. With crossbred or mongrel bulls, because of both the phenotypical and genotypical variation in their immediate pedigree, theyre not going to provide you with the level of consistency wanted. Some offspring will revert back to the sire, some to the grandsire, some to other various ancestry. Take Red Demand for example: the calves that revert to HAA Contender will be quite different than those who revert to KL 6294. A fundamental rule: the more variation in the pedigree, the more variation in the offspring.

Click to expand...

When considering the pedigrees of these bulls I had a similar idea to you, these bulls will lack consistency. When it comes to epds, however these bulls are quite impressive for the breed. Do you not think with consistent breeding of these sires you could form a line which perpetuate their characteristics consistently?

Yes, with continual use (back crossing) I'm sure you could form a more prepotent line. It's all relative and incremental though: more or less prepotent/consistant than what? As far as their EPD's-- I can't get past their prefix to see them.

librarian · Apr 22, 2016

I'd just as soon cross F0203 from Angus with Lincoln Red; get an old red gene into the F1 Angus X generation; then breed F2 to a polled Native bull and select against black-if the program is to start with a cross and consistently breed for something called Shorthorn that works across the board.
-Rather than breed back from Red Reward.

RyanChandler · Apr 22, 2016

F1 X F1 = F2. An F2 is also known as a 'double cross hybrid.' Double cross hybrids should never be utilized as breeding stock.

mark tenenbaum · Apr 22, 2016

The following red bulls are sons of the same bull (Reward) out of two very different cows-The roan bull is out of another ENTIRELY different cow and is a son of Turners Deception-the larger bull pictured. PRAY TELL-would it be a profound extension of audacity and ill faith to make the assertion that these 3 animals bear a striking resemblance to oneanother? And-if Olson had some pictures of his calves-some of which may be out of daughters of a real good red bull he bought from Raisbecks:who is more homeraised than the limelight cattle.-I would offer up the astounding assumption that they too-bear this resemblence(s). Shedding light upon the preponderance of no small consistency in the phenotypes being propogated from this breeding.O0

shortyjock89 · Apr 22, 2016

I can find a few Red Diamond progeny pics somewhere I'm sure. He is fantastically consistent and we're so happy with his daughters.

I'll post a Deception calf picture or two now though, even though they are a bit younger than those you posted Mark. They are full sibs to one another however.

librarian · Apr 22, 2016

-XBAR- said:
F1 X F1 = F2. An F2 is also known as a 'double cross hybrid.' Double cross hybrids should never be utilized as breeding stock.

Otherwise people would just breed baldies to baldies.
But what are we even talking about? The question is not whether breeding 65% of Shorthorn females to excel as Show cattle is good or bad.
The question is, Is that a reasonable estimate of breed direction.
(according to registrations, I guess)
If so, then so be it. Breeding stock is stock bred to reliably reproduce its own type.
Increase variability and you increase sort loss, but not the possibility of a producing a minority of outstanding animals. That's probably why show heifers are so expensive- only 1 in 16 or less will turn out exceptional instead of them all being average.
I think there is a valid argument that outcross recombination is necessary to breed champions. As long as we manage to save germ plasm from the parent stock to renew itself, why not lasso clouds with the rest?
But roping the wind and calling it a commercial brand is something else.

knabe · Apr 22, 2016

-XBAR- said:
F1 X F1 = F2. An F2 is also known as a 'double cross hybrid.' Double cross hybrids should never be utilized as breeding stock.

why do purebred breeders do this within their breed over and over and over?

mark tenenbaum · Apr 22, 2016

Because in some instances it works very well-Gary Kaper could fill you in as well as anyone O0

JTM · Apr 22, 2016

Haters will hate but I'll say again, breeding like kind animals to like kind animals will give you like kind animals. Breeding composites to composites is no different than breeding purebred to purebred when breeding like kind animals. If you want to argue down to the science and semantics of it that only 1% of cattlemen even follow then that is fine but it won't gain you anything. There is much more to be gained with a more simplistic breeding system and superior animals overall. Could you get even more superior results with a very complex and exact crossbreeding system? YES, but who is doing that in large numbers? The best breeders in the country, Nichols, Leachman, Pharo, etc. are all breeding composite bulls and promoting using them in a simplistic breeding system that makes it much easier to achieve great results for about any cow/calf operator. <alien>

aj · Apr 22, 2016

I don't understand the statement......double cross hybrids should be never used as breeding stock. Is this for selling seedstock or in developing breed lines. Bumper sticker philosphy is insane.....we need some clarity here.

trevorgreycattleco · Apr 22, 2016

JTM said:
Haters will hate but I'll say again, breeding like kind animals to like kind animals will give you like kind animals. Breeding composites to composites is no different than breeding purebred to purebred when breeding like kind animals. If you want to argue down to the science and semantics of it that only 1% of cattlemen even follow then that is fine but it won't gain you anything. There is much more to be gained with a more simplistic breeding system and superior animals overall. Could you get even more superior results with a very complex and exact crossbreeding system? YES, but who is doing that in large numbers? The best breeders in the country, Nichols, Leachman, Pharo, etc. are all breeding composite bulls and promoting using them in a simplistic breeding system that makes it much easier to achieve great results for about any cow/calf operator. <alien>

I think that's incredibly short sighted. And Pharo is not a top breeder. No way no how. He's a salesman. You're smarter than this. I will never understand how one can argue something that's already been proven.

knabe · Apr 23, 2016

seriously AJ, is cussing necessary?

Mill Iron A · Apr 23, 2016

JTM is right though. How many guys out there are buying only F1 replacement heifers? It's not happening on a large scale. The only thing I will say is that as sexed semen gets better on conception I could see more of this being done. The funny thing is when that happens terminal cattle will become a lot more valuable. One thing to remember is large scale commercial producers don't care about all the little details of breeding systems. They just want simple. That's why composites are so popular.

librarian · Apr 23, 2016

If the business model is to sell bulls to and from cooperator herds built on Formula 409 genetics, then I guess the cooperators need to ride for the brand and use 409 cows or the program will unravel.
I do give credit to the marketing ingenuity of having a text friendly brand logo.

aj · Apr 23, 2016

I din't think Pharo was raising composites.

65% of the Shorthorn breeds current design is based on show heifers.

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