A couple of heifer calves

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blackdiamond

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thoughts?
 

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shortyjock89

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The purebred could end up being nice.  She look to be somewhat open fronted however, and may be a little shorter in her pastern than what would be ideal.  Her structure is a bit difficult to read in these pictures due to the terrain, will be able to tell you more in Springfield.

The plus looks more masculine than your bull, but she seems to have some mass to her.  Probably the best fleshing calf you've posted (at least in some time).  She seems to also be shorter in her pastern and is a bit steep in her foot design in general, but some of how you read her angles in that picture could be due to the hard ground as well. 

Overall- better than most calves you've posted, progress is what most of us are after so Congrats on that.  Look forward to hearing what you think of my calves when we're all there for the sale.
 

blackdiamond

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OH Breeder said:
What are you breeding them for? I am so confused. Show or Production?

Neither-- just making good muscled, eye catching animals that perform with minimal grain (most of the time), and still do well when put to grain for sales...

Justin, your june heifer looks interesting- It suprised me she was a plus-- seems like plenty of pluses entered in the sale.

Another month, will be interesting to see what they look like.. The blue roan is getting plenty fat-- always belived that format wants them way too fat.. She's easy keeping-- I can't get over it.  If I was keeping her, she'd be cut down on the grain.  She doesn't have enough extension upfront- I admit that.. but body wise, she's got plenty...

The big heifer will be interesting to see side by side how she'll compare...

The bull calf-- I hope the next month makes as much progress as the last has done.  From most who've seen the calves in person-- the bull calf is the pick of the pen...
 

blackdiamond

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
Probably the best fleshing calf you've posted (at least in some time).  .

Amazing what a little grain will do for one's body condition...  Those hard fleshing cattle I post-- typically don't have a very show heifer like, luxurious lifestyle.  I've got bred heifers here, that haven't had 50 pounds of grain in thelr life...
 

shortyjock89

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Also, just thought you may like to learn that fat show heifers can have calves, and maybe even nurse them.  The heifer in my avatar calved yesterday, had a 62 lb heifer calf, and had it up and nursing on its own in 45 minutes.  I'm fairly certain that at least 60% of the issues people have with calving Shorthorns are down to management practices.
 
J

JTM

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
Also, just thought you may like to learn that fat show heifers can have calves, and maybe even nurse them.  The heifer in my avatar calved yesterday, had a 62 lb heifer calf, and had it up and nursing on its own in 45 minutes.  I'm fairly certain that at least 60% of the issues people have with calving Shorthorns are down to management practices.
Can you share your suggestions for proper calving management? I'm having a real tough time believing that but would really be interested in your ideas. I don't feed any grain to my cows, ever, and have had plenty of issues out of Shorthorn show genetics.
 

shortyjock89

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What kinds of problems? I just can't believe that my family is just that lucky when it comes to calving.  Maybe we have less of the very prominent matings, but we truly have fewer problems than what most people talk about.
 
J

JTM

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
What kinds of problems? I just can't believe that my family is just that lucky when it comes to calving.  Maybe we have less of the very prominent matings, but we truly have fewer problems than what most people talk about.
Haha, well should I start another topic? Probably... I'll call it "Calving management and practices".
 

shortyjock89

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Well maybe you should?  I'm not trying to start an argument with you, but if all Shorthorns calve so hard, why don't we have more problems?  Basically we just don't feed the cows any grain for the last 3-4 months, and keep a close eye when we know they're close.  We also don't fool around and wait for a cow that's having trouble to tire herself out.  If one is having a problem, we just jump in with the chains and usually we have a calf very shortly.  Perhaps we've selected more for calving ease in our herd more than I've realized.  We do try to avoid using bulls that we know full well will cause problems with certain cows, but that doesn't mean we use calving-ease only sires.  I wouldn't say that our herd sire is bred for calving ease, but we have had to assist very few of those at birth, and we nearly never have to help them nurse.
 

RyanChandler

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I've come to the conclusion its a management issue as well.  Grain or roughage isn't the issue.  High energy rations are the issue.  Lots of forages especially in the north with TDNs over 70%.  I can feed my cows a ration w/ all the native hay here they want along with a few lbs of cottonseed cubes/day and their ration will still be considerably  lower TDN and probably lower protein too than a lot of people feeding 'no grain' rations. 
 
J

JTM

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-XBAR- said:
I've come to the conclusion its a management issue as well.  Grain or roughage isn't the issue.  High energy rations are the issue.  Lots of forages especially in the north with TDNs over 70%.  I can feed my cows a ration w/ all the native hay here they want along with a few lbs of cottonseed cubes/day and their ration will still be considerably  lower TDN and probably lower protein too than a lot of people feeding 'no grain' rations. 
I feed native prairie grasses also and have been for quite a while now. It is not their whole diet but is significant enough.
Olson Family Shorthorns said:
Well maybe you should?  I'm not trying to start an argument with you, but if all Shorthorns calve so hard, why don't we have more problems?  Basically we just don't feed the cows any grain for the last 3-4 months, and keep a close eye when we know they're close.  We also don't fool around and wait for a cow that's having trouble to tire herself out.  If one is having a problem, we just jump in with the chains and usually we have a calf very shortly.  Perhaps we've selected more for calving ease in our herd more than I've realized.  We do try to avoid using bulls that we know full well will cause problems with certain cows, but that doesn't mean we use calving-ease only sires.  I wouldn't say that our herd sire is bred for calving ease, but we have had to assist very few of those at birth, and we nearly never have to help them nurse.
I wasn't starting an argument either but sincerely wanted to hear your thoughts on the issue. Sounds like you have a great herd of cattle to me. I'm definitely jealous of that performance and especially out of heifers that look like the one in your avatar. She is a beautiful animal for sure. Don't get me wrong, I've got some good performing cows and I love Shorthorns. I'm not going anywhere but I'm sure as heck going to make some changes genetically to find another avenue without the problems.
 

shortyjock89

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See, I kind of always liked your cows and what you're trying to do with a more "real world" spin on the show genetics.

I wouldn't say we have a great herd, but they're getting better every year.  We just realized about 7-8 years ago that we had to cull much harder than we previously thought.  We noticed a very large improvement in our calf crop after dropping the bottom 30% in calving ease, weaning weight, and % of body weight/calf weaned.  I would hate to have to cull that white heifer, but if she doesn't cut it, then she doesn't get to stay. So far she has been all we can ask for and more though. We give the cows a chance to do well, but we don't have the space to keep a bunch of no- doing hayburners. 

For what it's worth, I think your Flex bull would work quite well on a lot of my cows. 

If I were you, I would stick with that Complete bull, or buy a group of young cows from a place like Sneeds, Lovings, or Kaper's.  Programs like that do not permit their cows to hang around and not work.  If you used a "show" bull on cows like that, I bet you would be quite happy. 
 
J

JTM

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I agree about those programs and the cows. That is more of the direction I am going. I want to have cows that perform first. I sold Flex after the first calf crop. Star Bucks and Complete are the real deal. I'm hoping that Renegade will be also.
 

shortyjock89

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If that's the direction you want to go, then I think a lot of your problems will go away.  Might take some time to make some show heifers out of those kinds of cows, but it can definitely be done if that sort of thing interests you.
 

blackdiamond

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
How do you feel about them structurally? 

The blue roan heifer is a tick straight fronted-- when she is moving, her head is not in show position.  I'd like to see her track wider from behind, especially considering her upper skeleton mass and width.  Flexibilty, I think she's fine with.  This heifer is geared perfectly for somebody wanting to make crossbred show steers-- and breed this massive deal to something of today's extreme clubby type bulls.  Color will be a plus.

The puebred heifer, does some funky things with her back legs.  I don't think she's straight, as she has flex and curvature to those back legs.  She also hits her track.  I think she might have a case of the show heifer short hip, which doesn't allow her to send her hock back far enough behind-- making her appear like she can't-- or in english-- is straight.  The biggest, and most serious fault of the purebred is her lack of bone and leg hair.  I'm not saying she's a frail boned female, but I am saying that she won't be the frailiest made heifer at the sale-- but taking into account leg hair and substance, she might appear to be.  I'll be interested in seeing how this heifer compares size wise with the broken record cattle, as she's a touch bigger than I like-- thus being sold.  My most anticipated move will be hoping she gets bought by someone who'll breed her to those genetics down the road...  I think she'll do wonders...

The bull calf, is structurally flawless- and I think you'll be better suited in person seeing him...
 
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