A Glimpse at the Future?

<beer> that is a great bull! Hope he will have semen available  <party> (thumbsup)

trevorgreycattleco said:

Here we go again. Good for that fella. I got no bone to pick.

Doc, thats the difference between me and you. You want to breed something you can sell. I want to breed cattle that work to improve the industry.  I dont really care about which pedigree is more popular with the show circuit.  To each is their own.  If my kids want to show cattle when they get old enough, they will show with something on the farm that we bred. I dont know why that is so not cool to do anymore. People take more pride in how much they paid for a animal or where they got it then their own animals. go figure. Obviously shortdawg is the wrong example to use. I think people get the drift tho. One thing for sure Doc. We agree to disagree. I would still buy you a drink anytime and have this chat some more. maybe you guys could change my little mind.

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I hope that the animals I raise are helping the industry. But I'm still in the business to sell animals , not keep every one of them. With as much as feed costs & the land to raise them on , I have to receive as much as I can. Did I say anything about the show circuit. No. I raise a lot of cattle that aren't going to make the show circuit type. Just look at the full Irish cattle I've advertised on here. I try to raise something to show myself, if I'm going to show. I take a lot of pride when an animal I raise does good in the ring. Last year for example I sold a heifer at KY Beef Expo for $2,000. Not bad money in my book, but in some herds that would be cull hfrs. That hfr went to GA & was Gr. Champ numerous times including at the GA Nat'l. If I'm going to show something I have to raise it because I don't have the $7500 to $50k to spend & then still get beat. If I pay bigger money for a hfr, it's because I think she can help my herd. If she is good enough to take to the state fair or somewhere else & play a little bit that's great.

iowa said:

posting picture for Turnpike

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I just visited with yet another person that said this bull is a chunk !! sign me up

Standing by a purpose true,
Heeding God’s command,
Honor them, the faithful few!
All hail to Daniel’s band!

Dare to be a Daniel,
Dare to stand alone!
Dare to have a purpose firm!
Dare to make it known.

Many mighty men are lost,
Daring not to stand,
Who for God had been a host
By joining Daniel’s band.

Many giants, great and tall,
Stalking through the land,
Headlong to the earth would fall,
If met by Daniel’s band.
Hold the Gospel banner high!
On to vict’ry grand!
Satan and his hosts defy,
And shout for Daniel’s band.

(thumbsup)Like !!

knabe said:

Standing by a purpose true,
Heeding God’s command,
Honor them, the faithful few!
All hail to Daniel’s band!

Dare to be a Daniel,
Dare to stand alone!
Dare to have a purpose firm!
Dare to make it known.

Many mighty men are lost,
Daring not to stand,
Who for God had been a host
By joining Daniel’s band.

Many giants, great and tall,
Stalking through the land,
Headlong to the earth would fall,
If met by Daniel’s band.
Hold the Gospel banner high!
On to vict’ry grand!
Satan and his hosts defy,
And shout for Daniel’s band.

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This blue bull is a true badass!  Anybody know how he scanned?  That is always a questionmark for me on these OCC cattle.

Too bad, he isnt a red-roan!

I'm with A and T Cattle-- where can we find his scan data!! If it is good- then I'm in also to try some. 
Is there a catalog with data still out on the net somewhere?
Thanks!

shortdawg said:

Funny what I got accused of doing when I was selling some of my purebreds and moving my program in the Plus direction. Turnpike saw a couple of my Plus females a month or so back.

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I guess, then, this is your sire for line-breeding "plus" cattle. IMO, anyways. One thing to notice, is, that similiar arguments happen among Gelbvieh, Limousin,and Simmental breeders. The guys getting deep into the Limiflex, Balancer, and SimAngus deal, are constantly being slammed by the Continental "purists". I should know, because Dad's banker is a Gelbvieh breeder with large, heavy milking, diluter-carrier, yellow cows. Dad's second cousin is a Gelbvieh breeder, turned Balancer fanatic. Whenever I see either one of them, each of them asks me, or my brothers about what we think about the other guy's breeding program.
Difference of opinion is not unique to Shorthorn breeders.

GB

Doc said:

trevorgreycattleco said:

Here we go again. Good for that fella. I got no bone to pick.

Doc, thats the difference between me and you. You want to breed something you can sell. I want to breed cattle that work to improve the industry.  I dont really care about which pedigree is more popular with the show circuit.  To each is their own.  If my kids want to show cattle when they get old enough, they will show with something on the farm that we bred. I dont know why that is so not cool to do anymore. People take more pride in how much they paid for a animal or where they got it then their own animals. go figure. Obviously shortdawg is the wrong example to use. I think people get the drift tho. One thing for sure Doc. We agree to disagree. I would still buy you a drink anytime and have this chat some more. maybe you guys could change my little mind.

Click to expand...

I hope that the animals I raise are helping the industry. But I'm still in the business to sell animals , not keep every one of them. With as much as feed costs & the land to raise them on , I have to receive as much as I can. Did I say anything about the show circuit. No. I raise a lot of cattle that aren't going to make the show circuit type. Just look at the full Irish cattle I've advertised on here. I try to raise something to show myself, if I'm going to show. I take a lot of pride when an animal I raise does good in the ring. Last year for example I sold a heifer at KY Beef Expo for $2,000. Not bad money in my book, but in some herds that would be cull hfrs. That hfr went to GA & was Gr. Champ numerous times including at the GA Nat'l. If I'm going to show something I have to raise it because I don't have the $7500 to $50k to spend & then still get beat. If I pay bigger money for a hfr, it's because I think she can help my herd. If she is good enough to take to the state fair or somewhere else & play a little bit that's great.

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Doc, I definitely understand where you are coming from concerning your program. I think there is a lot of value in having the proof of the genetics when marketing cattle. I think that the consistency that comes with purebreds compared to crossbreds is probably what you are speaking to. I agree with this. When you have so many different crosses and genetics coming into play with a breeding, it may make more sense to go with the average purebred rather than a good or better crossbred. In your operation, and actually mine, that makes a lot of sense. In my opinion,with the right breeding, the purebred will end up creating the better cattle on a percentage basis than the crossbred. 
Trevorgrey, I think crossing a purebred with a purebred or just keeping a breed towards a higher percentage can give an advantage for performance compared to purebreds. Higher percentage crosses give better consistency in quality compared to three way cross or higher cattle or just picking the commercial cow that looks way better than anything else. I have had some really ugly looking cows end up having the nicest calves and the better cows end up have the runts. I believe this is due to their genetic makeup and that makes the pedigree worth something in my opinion. I think this theory can hold pretty true whether you are breeding for show cattle or for commercial cattle. When it comes to consistency with commercial cattle, I am still learning there. JMO

Who doesnt want to sell their animals? I sure dont want to keep them all Doc.
I wish people put less influence on a animals pedigree. It is important but not everything. Its a tool. I personally will take the no name pedigree cow that does a whale of a job vs the hot pedigree cow that does ok. For finishing cattle on grass and getting the best carcass quality you need to cross angus on shorthorn IMO. When I inject angus into my shorthorns its to help build a better shorthorn, not to keep creating crossbreds. I will always breed back up to over 7/8 shorthorn for my cows. I forsee me always injecting a few shots of highly proven red or black angus into my cows and then breeding back shorthorn. I was told a long time ago to judge the cow by the calf not herself and I always try to remember that. If she does her job, why sell her?  How many chances in ones life do you get to change your program before your just tryin to breed whats hot at the moment? How many folks even heard of the Clementine family at Hubs till recently? I know I sure didnt. But holy moly can they produce for me.

Trevorgrey, I agree with everything you just said. I also think that you have a recipe for success. I just wanted to clarify that my comment was referring to mainly heifers that I would consider buying to grow my herd. Proven performance and marketability makes it easier and takes the guess work out of it. I like the advice to judge the calf that is produced and not the cow. I guess that was kind of what I was saying about the consistency deal.

TGC, All I know is what you said & I quote "Doc, thats the difference between me and you. You want to breed something you can sell." So I took it that if you were doing otherwise that meant you were not wanting to sell your animals but keep them.
As far as hearing of the Clementine cow family I bought my 1st Clementine cow in about 1980. Windholme probably made that cow family more popular than HUBS.IMO.
JTM, I was actually talking about purebred cattle , but ones that you have never heard of , thru consistency in the cow families. Thats why I believe that it's important to continue cow family names in pedigrees.

IMO, you can't beat a pedigree on an animal... I think it is the most important selection tool that a breeder can use.  The peidgree makes, or breaks you far, far more times times than people think.  In almost every case, there is something in there pre-potent enough to last for several generations- positive, or neg.

Where do I think the problem comes in?  When pedigree is selected for, or against for the wrong reason.  SOmething like selection towards one bull, just becuase he made a bunch of winners- when really over half of his offspring were worthless.. but everybody realized his name was in there..

Just because an animal, has an unknown pedigree-- doesn't mean that she's a dud.  I mean, I bet somebody knows something, or quite a lot about that pedigree- you just need ro research it more.  All it takes is some research, and you can have a cow with a known pedigree....

I realize this is going to sound very confused.. but I hope you get the drift.. At this point, I should rather be eating breakfast, and heading to work... but instead.. I'm on here--- go figure...  I'll be back...!

I know when I'm buying, I'll sure shy towards the poor feeders, terrible fitters, and average breeders.. Why, cuz I know if they have an outstanding animal.. It's legit, and more times than not will be a powerhouse breeding machine....  From my experience only though!>!

I feel the pedigree is a valuable tool.A pedigree usually is a reflection of the breeder.Is the breeder someone who has a longterm goal and disciplined program to achieve that goal or is he the catch up guy or maybe the opportunist who throws a couple extremes together to duplicate whats hot and unloads them?You can find that out by studying a pedigree in most cases.Most pedigrees don't lie!There are always exceptions but in most cases the animal will reflect the pedigree.For instance a Dual x Chiannia should typically not be a marbling machine and pass it on for generations.Another thing about a pedigree is one that means big money in one type of program can be a total disaster in another.
I started this thread because as we debate there are professional businessman who are industry leaders the kind you read about in Beef or Drovers that are trying some Shorthorn in their large scale commercial operations.If these guys find some strains that click with their programs the followers will be right behind them and someday we may be selling roan and white bulls because people will want proof that there is Shorthorn in their calves.No more sneaking them in the back door with red bulls or black crossbreds.

r.n.reed said:

I feel the pedigree is a valuable tool.A pedigree usually is a reflection of the breeder.Is the breeder someone who has a longterm goal and disciplined program to achieve that goal or is he the catch up guy or maybe the opportunist who throws a couple extremes together to duplicate whats hot and unloads them?You can find that out by studying a pedigree in most cases.Most pedigrees don't lie!There are always exceptions but in most cases the animal will reflect the pedigree.For instance a Dual x Chiannia should typically not be a marbling machine and pass it on for generations.Another thing about a pedigree is one that means big money in one type of program can be a total disaster in another.
I started this thread because as we debate there are professional businessman who are industry leaders the kind you read about in Beef or Drovers that are trying some Shorthorn in their large scale commercial operations.If these guys find some strains that click with their programs the followers will be right behind them and someday we may be selling roan and white bulls because people will want proof that there is Shorthorn in their calves.No more sneaking them in the back door with red bulls or black crossbreds.

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(thumbsup) You heard it here first! Well said!