Acceptable birth weights

I just looked at a sale catalog where 10 of the 15 bulls out of an 'easy calving bull' had birth weights over 90 pounds.  The other 5 with birth weights listed ranged from low 70's to mid 80's.  All have good BEPDs, however.  Would you consider buying a bull with a 98 pound birth weight as a calving ease prospect to use on your heifers, regardless of his BEPD?  I'm not praising or condemning anybody or any animal, but if I was to look for a calving ease bull, I would look for several generations of low birth weights on both sides of the pedigree and would probably not consider a bull with a birth weight of over 80 pounds.  I understand the many variables in birth weight, etc., but would just like to see some input on acceptable birth weight range you might have when selecting a calving ease bull.  If 2/3 of a bull's calves weigh in excess of 90 pounds, should he be promoted as a calving ease bull? 

my favorite is when they advertise a bull as an easy calver & he was never weighed at birth.  :

Red

many a geneticist will tell you, that producers shouldn't include actual performance data in a bull sale catalog, because it second guesses epds.

The only way to predict a sires effects on his progeny is through epds.

That's the best that is available

Not saying its what sells or is right

simtal said:

many a geneticist will tell you, that producers shouldn't include actual performance data in a bull sale catalog, because it second guesses epds.

The only way to predict a sires effects on his progeny is through epds.

That's the best that is available

Not saying its what sells or is right

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i would like to see something like apd's, or actual progeny data.  that way, i can assess numbers for myself.  what i can do is see if numbers are made up and represent an actual random distribution, or seem skewed around a desired mean with outliers.

prediction is not a good enough.  what i would like to see is another tool that showed the difference between epd changes over year to year.  to me, epd's are basically an indication, nothing more, nothing less.

for instance, for a maine bull, compare the following two bulls

bw  205  365  maternal  imf

1.0  650   1050 18          3 has a wide distribution in all 4 categories with a few star performing outliers.
3.0  645  999    17        5  slightly higer birth weights, but all numbers are tight and is better looking, with no real outliers either way

personally, i would take the 2nd bull

I'm not praising or condemning anybody or any animal, but if I was to look for a calving ease bull, I would look for several generations of low birth weights on both sides of the pedigree and would probably not consider a bull with a birth weight of over 80 pounds

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The EPDs take that into account.

I tend to be with you on unlisted BWs but too many cattlemen that know more than I do have repeated the line from about about actual vs EPDs for me to dismiss it.

This is that sticky area that the angus breed lives in.  With AHIR it is possible for a 90 lb bull to have a low BW EPD.  The AHIR will ratio a group of bull and if the 90 pounder is the lightest in the group his BW EPD will be lower.  I know for a fact that people submit contemporary groups with a real bad one in the mix to make the others look good.  Gotta love loopholes!  Another factor to consider is the feed program that a cow in gestation is on.  If people feed a lot during gestation it makes sense that the weights of the calves are higher and if used in a different program the offspring could be more moderate in birth.  

In all reality a bull isn't a calving ease bull in my mind until his accuracy is high.  having an accuracy of .05 is like a shot in the dark.....and I'm not that good of a shot anyway.  ;D

simtal said:

many a geneticist will tell you, that producers shouldn't include actual performance data in a bull sale catalog, because it second guesses epds.

The only way to predict a sires effects on his progeny is through epds.

That's the best that is available

Not saying its what sells or is right

Click to expand...

EPD's are only as good as as the people and numbers that they turn. Sad but true , but every since EPD's have gottrn to be a marketing tool there are people who manipulate the numbers. A calving ease bull with a 120# birth weight would scare me to death, but we seldom have calves that go much over 90# either. For me the ideal calf is 80 to 85 #s as far as weight goes, these are the easiest to market. I do think that the shape of the calf has as much or more to do with calving ease as the actual BW. RW

The AI guy I use told me you can not trust the birth weights on club calve bulls.

If I'm buying a bull for calving ease, I'm looking for a bw between 75 and 85 pounds, with a front end that doesn't look like it's going to be a cow killer. Once I've found the animal that I like, then I'll look at EPD's.

I've seen EPD's manipulated too many times to put faith in the numbers. You have keep in mind that EPD's are derived from performance of calves in comparison to their contemporary groups. If I have 3 bulls, I can make or break any bull. If I take a runt calf from bull A, a mediocre calf from bull B, and a stellar calf from bull C and put them in a contemporary group, bull C's calves will always ratio higher and you will see his performance numbers increase. If I have 30 calves and set up 10 contemporary groups, you'll see the numbers start to swing.

If you guys don't trust the EPDs because they are manipulated, why would you believe the BW?

EPDs with any sort of accuracy typically require an organized effort on the part of numerous breeders to manipulate.  BW requires "oh, I don't know, I guess 80lbs sounds good, that's what all the other Heat Wave sons list".

A 98 lb easy calver means a whole world of difference when you are breeding 1200lb virgin simmental heifers; versus breeding a 78lb easy calver to 800 lb virgin angus heifers.
However ppl lie, or cheat, or fudge numbers, or judge and analyze their own cattle.  YOU have to go make a purchase, using your own brain and thinking about nothing but your own cattle.  Just dont tell us you went to the sale and bought a 98 lb easy calving bull, threw him on your 800lb virgin heifers, and then ask us what went wrong!!  You know what Im getting at??  People can do whatever it takes to sell their bulls, just dont go and be nieve and fall for it.  Its frustrating what some people get away with, but just worry about yourself, and not everyone else.  Yes, in otherwords, be selfish sometimes.....lol. 

Bawndoh said:

A 98 lb easy calver means a whole world of difference when you are breeding 1200lb virgin simmental heifers; versus breeding a 78lb easy calver to 800 lb virgin angus heifers.
However ppl lie, or cheat, or fudge numbers, or judge and analyze their own cattle.  YOU have to go make a purchase, using your own brain and thinking about nothing but your own cattle.  Just dont tell us you went to the sale and bought a 98 lb easy calving bull, threw him on your 800lb virgin heifers, and then ask us what went wrong!!  You know what Im getting at??  People can do whatever it takes to sell their bulls, just dont go and be nieve and fall for it.  Its frustrating what some people get away with, but just worry about yourself, and not everyone else.  Yes, in otherwords, be selfish sometimes.....lol. 

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Yes you have to make the decision. You have to try to match bull to your cows.
Year and half ago my daughters market heifer was bred at 9 months old by the neighbors bull. The only reason I left her alone was; because I know my in-laws were going to buy her back and I see the neighbors cows all the time and the have small calves. She had the calve just fine wt# about 60 lbs and the calve turned out better than I thought he was going too. Now my daughter is going to show him at our County Steer show in Oct. of 09.

AAOK said:

 Ex. - who ever saw a good milking Limousin?  
.

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I've seen a lot of good miking Limousins...  They actually make pretty good recips...

CJC said:

The AI guy I use told me you can not trust the birth weights on club calve bulls.

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A lot of calving easy has to do with the shape of the calf and the size of the pelvis.  Super stout club type will calve a lot harder than a long skinny calf.  I  desire a range of 70-85 lb..  Its a good compromise between calving and performance.  A live calf is money, a dead calf and tore up cow is a huge expense.  Reproductive efficiency is the most important economic variable in any animal production set up that relies on feeders to be sold.

There are a lot of things we will take into account when selecting a bull.  Of course structure and type are high on the list along with "adequate" performance.  Looking at BW's can sometimes be a different challenge because cows are managed so differently from operation to operation.  If I had to pick a number it would be 85 lbs for a max.  But we will look at pedigrees, EPD's, actual BW and BW ratios.  we can live with an 88 lb calf to use peacefully on hfrs if most of the other calves from that operation or sire group are running in the mid 90's plus.  EPD's can give an estimate but they can really change.  Just look at the accuracy value and the possible change in EPD's  .15 acc bulls can move over 2 lbs +/- BW EPD.  So now the below breed average BW EPD bull you bought can easily be above average after the first set of calves.

I cannot speak for other breeds, but in Braunvieh my experience has been that cattle with large EPDs can be really wrong but generally speaking the cattle with negative EPDs for BW are moderate BW bulls and throw calves as such. Now, whether or not they can be used on heifers is another matter and requires research about the bloodlines and the bulls progeny. BWs can be so varied by environment, feeding program and calving season. For example, we have a bull who is young, 84# BW and 1st round of calves (only 10) was anywhere from 72 to 95 pounds. People inquiring to AI him to heifers, I do not recommend b/c we don't have enough data out there to make me comfortable. I do not call him a heifer bull at all. A fellow breeder used him in south texas and got all his calves in the 65 and 70 pound range and he has already told me he is using him on heifers now. Scares me a little but his choice.

When I buy a heifer bull, I flat out ask the breeder/seller if they would be 100% certain this bull would work on heifers. I make it VERY clear that is what his role is going to be and usually if there is some doubt, I avoid that animal, and they are honest about it. I also use actual BW and pedigrees to help me arrive at my decision. Since I started using this approach, we have not had any problems with our heifer bulls!
Great topic!

I think 100# is the max for acceptability. I would think that 85-90 pounds would be max for a commercial. It does depend on if your cows are from a salebarn or home raised also what they can handle. There are operations in say the Nebraska sandhills that see their cows once a week by airplane and there is no room for even a 5 % pull ratio there. I have had my shorthorn cows lay down and have a 120# unnassisted but I am getting away from the big bwt's because it won't work on a commercial guy with herford cows or whatever. Its all a pelvic region-bwt,shape ratios but most commercial guys don't have a sense of humour on theories that don't work. It also takes a bull like jakes proud jazz to bring down the bwt's of cows who have nothing but 110# birth weights in their pedigrees. It can take at least 2 generations to breed the big out of a pedigree and even then it will still be in there waiting to lurk up again.jmo

Personally, I think a 98 lb BW bull can be considered a calving ease prospect if.... and this is a BIG IF.... he comes from solid genetics that have a reputation for few problems at birth. As I have mentioned on here more than once, I think the industry is getting too hung up on BW and not talking enough about Calving ease. My vet has told me for years that the so - called calving ease Red Angus bulls, in this area, have generated more business for his vet clinic during calving time.... than any other breed.

I happened to be at the vet clinic last spring when a neighbour was having a c- section done on a heifer.I commented on how small the calf looked, so we weighed it shortly after birth. It weighed right on 70 lbs... but it was just about as wide as it was long. This neighbour went through pure Hell last spring and ended up with 6 c -sections and several more hard pulls. The bull is now making his home at the Golden Arches, and being sold in quarter pound pieces. Too often, people do not put enough emphasis on calving ease, and do not use enough common sense when considering birth weights.

I would have to echo that comment about putting more emphasis on calving ease.  I've pulled 60-70 lb calves out of heifers with a decent pelvis. but the calves were short necked and deep chested.  That nice triangle shape, only backwards.