ACEPROMAZINE

johnmetzger · Mar 8, 2012

Ihave a sale heifer that doesn't stand in the grooming chute for clipping. She goes nuts. She is good in all other aspects (wash rack and leading). A friend gave me some Acepromazine (injectable) and told me to put 2cc dripped on her tounge to calm her for clipping. Has anyone had any success with this or any other ideas ?

Gargan · Mar 9, 2012

ive never personally used it, but know a guy that used it a bit in the 90's. It does seem to calm the calf down, but give it to her about 30 mins before u put her in the chute. Another tip a fellow steer planeteer gave me that u mite try is once she is in the chute, put a towel over her eyes and/or head. It may or may not work, but what do u have to lose. Good Luck!!

Cow Chaser · Mar 9, 2012

That will work, my question is how big is the heifer? 2cc in the mouth will calm a thousand pound calf down, if she is really wild in the chute I would go ahead with the 2cc, and yes give it to her and wait a little bit, when you give it in the mouth it takes a little while to take hold, if you want it to work fast main line it in the vein on the under side of the tail.

ferkj · Mar 9, 2012

You can also shoot it straight in her nostril. We use a tip from a nasalgen doser. It works quicker than the oral way.

PDJ · Mar 9, 2012

Also might be a good idea to try it once before putting her in the chute. In rare cases it can absolutely put them over the moon. Another trick if you have a regular chute rather than a blocking chute is to belly rope the calf for the initial rough out. We have put a bar over the working chute, then used a long breaking halter around the rear flank and tied to the bar. Use enough pressure to take them up on their tip toes.

MCC · Mar 9, 2012

We have used Ace for many years. Start out with a small dose ( no more than 2 cc you can always give more). We have had 500 lb. calves 10cc wouldn't slow them down and 1200 lb calves that 2cc would put them to sleep.

DL · Mar 9, 2012

You know that according to AMDUCA and ELDU what you are doing is illegal but clearly you don't care. I also question the ethics of using a tranquilizer on an animal you are selling, but again clearly you all don't care

MCC · Mar 9, 2012

DL said:
You know that according to AMDUCA and ELDU what you are doing is illegal but clearly you don't care. I also question the ethics of using a tranquilizer on an animal you are selling, but again clearly you all don't care

Who said we are selling them?
As far as I DON"T CARE I care more for protecting a 70 lb kid from taking a chance of getting hurt if the calf spooks in the show ring or acts up in the chute and ends up turning the chute over on top of the kid.

GoWyo · Mar 9, 2012

JDM said it was a "sale heifer." If it is one for sale, then there is a question of whether it is ethical to tranq it and not disclose to buyer that the animal goes nuts in the grooming chute. That being said, with as many cattle as ACE has been used on it would seem that it has been thoroughly tested enough to pass AMDUCA and ELDU by now. Have there ever been clinical studies on ACE in cattle? Maybe it is the variability of dosage that prevents labeling for use in cattle.

DL, can you enlighten us on why ACE is not approved for cattle from a vet medicine standpoint rather than the legal labeling standpoint, which most people are aware of?

DL · Mar 9, 2012

GoWyo said:
JDM said it was a "sale heifer." If it is one for sale, then there is a question of whether it is ethical to tranq it and not disclose to buyer that the animal goes nuts in the grooming chute. That being said, with as many cattle as ACE has been used on it would seem that it has been thoroughly tested enough to pass AMDUCA and ELDU by now. Have there ever been clinical studies on ACE in cattle? Maybe it is the variability of dosage that prevents labeling for use in cattle.

DL, can you enlighten us on why ACE is not approved for cattle from a vet medicine standpoint rather than the legal labeling standpoint, which most people are aware of?

GOWYO The rules on drugs used for the animals we produce for food are complicated, unevenly enforced, and often not intuitively sensible. The vet med standpoint and the legal standpoint are pretty well intertwined. Drugs approved for use in cattle have been tested, withhold and withdrawals determined, and efficacy assessed. Once they meet certain requirements they are approved for the specific species tested, for the route of administration, the dose and the conditions used. So if you look at Banamine it is not approved for pain management in cattle, but it is approved for for fever, if we use it for pain management technically we need to meet all the requirements for ELDU and AMDUCA. Since it is approved (for a different use) in cattle we know that if we give it in the approved manner (which happens to be IV) then we know exactly what the meat withhold is for the drug and we will not end up with violative residues.

The bottom line is that some drugs are approved for use in cattle - for example over the counter tetracycline - if it is used exactly according to the label there is no problem HOWEVER, if the farmer decides to increase the dose above the label does that falls under the Extra Label Drug Use policy (ELDU) which (by law) required certain things.

Any drug approved for use in human or equine or canine etc that is not approved for use in cattle can only be used if the ELDU requirements are met - medical grade DMSO, acepromazine, etc are NOT approved for use in cattle and therefor can only be used (legally) if ELDU requirements are met - you will note that drugs can be used only for therapeutic purposes (animal's health is suffering or threatened) - tranquilizing a heifer in a chute to clip her does not meet ELDU requirements and is therefor technically illegal.

ELDU REQUIREMENTS FOR USE
ELDU is permitted only by or under the supervision of a veterinarian.
ELDU is allowed only for FDA approved animal and human drugs.
A valid Veterinarian/Client/Patient Relationship is a prerequisite for all ELDU.
ELDU for therapeutic purposes only (animal's health is suffering or threatened). Not drugs for production use.
Rules apply to dosage form drugs and drugs administered in water. ELDU in feed is prohibited.
ELDU is not permitted if it results in a violative food residue, or any residue which may present a risk to public health.
FDA prohibition of a specific ELDU precludes such use.

There are also record and label requirements

RECORD REQUIREMENTS

Identify the animals, either as individuals or a group.
Animal species treated.
Numbers of animals treated.
Conditions being treated.
The established name of the drug and active ingredient.
Dosage prescribed or used.
Duration of treatment.
Specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time(s), if applicable, for meat, milk, eggs, or animal-derived food.
Keep records for 2 years.
FDA may have access to these records to estimate risk to public health.

LABEL REQUIREMENTS

Name and address of the prescribing veterinarian.
Established name of the drug.
Any specified directions for use including the class/species or identification of the animal or herd, flock, pen, lot, or other group; the dosage frequency, and route of administration; and the duration of therapy.
Any cautionary statements.
Your specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time for meat, milk, eggs, or any other food.

There are also drugs absolutely positively forbidden to be used in food animals (ie ELDU NOT ALLOWED)
Drugs Prohibited for Extralabel Use in Food Animals (Current as of June 2003. Check for updates on the FDA Web site at www.fda.gov/cvm)

Chloramphenicol
Clenbuterol
Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
Dimetridazole
Ipronidazole
Other Nitroimidazoles
Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
Fluoroquinolones
Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)

I know people do it - that doesn't make it right. I have heard the argument that we want to protect the kid or the public and I think it is bunk - I saw a tranquilized bull sleep through the sale - because the owner didn't want him to hurt anyone - IMHO he should have been burger.

You guys were all over Jody for his approach to youth and here you are teaching your kids to cheat and to use drugs that are illegal in food animals - we are producing food for human consumption - one would think that we would take the rules about drug use seriously - but apparently not when we might win a belt buckle.

Hope that clear it up a bit - it is a complicated, confusing conundrum and that doesn't even take into account the ethics of tranquilizing animals for show or sale

PS - don't shoot the messenger - I don't make the rules but I abide by them

modify - can't spell sorry

GoWyo · Mar 9, 2012

Thanks DL.

Jason - is there room in the Hall of Fame for DL's response? It certainly helps clear up an important issue and is a helpful explanation of AMDUCA and ELDU for SP members.

chambero · Mar 9, 2012

GoWyo said:
JDM said it was a "sale heifer." If it is one for sale, then there is a question of whether it is ethical to tranq it and not disclose to buyer that the animal goes nuts in the grooming chute. That being said, with as many cattle as ACE has been used on it would seem that it has been thoroughly tested enough to pass AMDUCA and ELDU by now. Have there ever been clinical studies on ACE in cattle? Maybe it is the variability of dosage that prevents labeling for use in cattle.

DL, can you enlighten us on why ACE is not approved for cattle from a vet medicine standpoint rather than the legal labeling standpoint, which most people are aware of?

Toxicology and residue studies for any kind of drug are very expensive to conduct. There has to be a need from a potential large customer volume to justify such a study. There isn't nearly enough of a need for use of tranquilizers in cattle to justify the expense to the drug companies to do it. So, you'll never see those studies done.

The particular exception I wish would get made would be for drugs approved for use in humans. For example - thorazine. I don't see why the regs couldn't be modified to allow use of human grade drugs in food animals - if it doesn't make you sick taking it directly it certainly isn't going to make you sick by the time it goes through another animal before it you ate it. I know there could be possible exceptions related to allergic reactions, etc, but you are talking about managing risk which would be infinitely small under even worse case scenarios. Again, there isn't enough of a need to justify the effort for the regulators to even look at it.

DL · Mar 9, 2012

chambero said:
GoWyo said:

JDM said it was a "sale heifer." If it is one for sale, then there is a question of whether it is ethical to tranq it and not disclose to buyer that the animal goes nuts in the grooming chute. That being said, with as many cattle as ACE has been used on it would seem that it has been thoroughly tested enough to pass AMDUCA and ELDU by now. Have there ever been clinical studies on ACE in cattle? Maybe it is the variability of dosage that prevents labeling for use in cattle.

DL, can you enlighten us on why ACE is not approved for cattle from a vet medicine standpoint rather than the legal labeling standpoint, which most people are aware of?

Click to expand...

Toxicology and residue studies for any kind of drug are very expensive to conduct. There has to be a need from a potential large customer volume to justify such a study. There isn't nearly enough of a need for use of tranquilizers in cattle to justify the expense to the drug companies to do it. So, you'll never see those studies done.

The particular exception I wish would get made would be for drugs approved for use in humans. For example - thorazine. I don't see why the regs couldn't be modified to allow use of human grade drugs in food animals - if it doesn't make you sick taking it directly it certainly isn't going to make you sick by the time it goes through another animal before it you ate it. I know there could be possible exceptions related to allergic reactions, etc, but you are talking about managing risk which would be infinitely small under even worse case scenarios. Again, there isn't enough of a need to justify the effort for the regulators to even look at it.

chambero - you are correct that toxicology and residue studies are expensive - however - just because thorazine is approved for human use does not mean it is without problems for humans -thorazine is a major anti psychotic used primarily for acute schizophrenia - it is an older drug and has been replaced pretty much by newer drugs without the side effects.It can cause severe sedative effects in humans, as well as hypotension , extra pyramidal effects and tardive dyskinesia in addition to anaphylaxis in those allergic to minute amounts. Because a drug is approved for use in humans doesn't mean it is safe for all humans nor does it mean that residues in meat could not be a problem for some humans.

One of the reasons that Penicillin has a meat withhold is that small amounts can kill a human who is allergic. You will also note that Penicillin is one of the major volilative residues identified weekly by the FDA. The FDA has ramped up it's residue testing in both meat and milk.

Boot Jack Bulls · Mar 9, 2012

I would try the towel or another sort of trick first. I have seen cattle blindfolded in the cutes in Denver. For some cattle, that's all it takes. Sillivan's does make cattle calm, which, as the name suggests, is approved for cattle. It may help her get over her anxiety and make life easier. I shy away from tranqs because not only are they a grey area, but they don't always have the same effect every time. She might be great the first time out and you think its fine for the kid to work her, and then she freaks and hurts someone. That's the risk we take with cattle in any situation, but I think this sort of thing just tips the odds the wrong way.

ACEPROMAZINE

Help Support Steer Planet:

johnmetzger

Well-known member

Gargan

Well-known member

Cow Chaser

Well-known member

ferkj

Well-known member

PDJ

Well-known member

MCC

Well-known member

DL

Well-known member

MCC

Well-known member

GoWyo

Well-known member

DL

Well-known member

GoWyo

Well-known member

chambero

Well-known member

DL

Well-known member

Boot Jack Bulls

Well-known member

Latest posts