American Pride

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firesweepranch

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Has anyone had any experience working with his calves? I was just looking up some embryo info, and noticed his EPD is the BOTTOM, worst in the breed. I have never seen an EPD so low!
Just wondering how much of that is passed to his calves...
Thanks!
 

CJB

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frostback said:
Which American Pride, there was 48 when I put it in the search?

Pretty sure it is JF AMERICAN PRIDE 0987X, ASA# 2573743, as he has 448 progeny registered.

GONEWEST said:
Which EPD are you referring to?

I'm guessing the docility EPD, as his is a 0.8, which puts him in the 99th % for the breed.

I have no experience with the bull or his calves.  Just trying to put some clarifications out there.
 

kanshow

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frostback said:
How long has that EPD even been tracked?
  Good call Frostie!  IMO, not long enough for it to be a big factor. No doubt it will get there.  Even if it were,he is only.54 ACC on that EPD which is not high enough to call it accurate. 
 

firesweepranch

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CJB said:
frostback said:
Which American Pride, there was 48 when I put it in the search?

Pretty sure it is JF AMERICAN PRIDE 0987X, ASA# 2573743, as he has 448 progeny registered.

GONEWEST said:
Which EPD are you referring to?

I'm guessing the docility EPD, as his is a 0.8, which puts him in the 99th % for the breed.

I have no experience with the bull or his calves.  Just trying to put some clarifications out there.

Yes, thank you. Simmi breeders would usually know what I am talking about, sorry for not clarifying. I just wonder why it is so low. Yes, accuracy is important, but that number got that low for some reason. His dam is low, but not that low. That is why I am trying to find out from people who OWN a calf to see what their opinion is. Nothing like going straight to the source. With 448 calves registered with him as the sire, I was hoping to hear something. From the few I have spoken with via word of mouth, his calves are usually pretty laid back, but can be all over the place too.
Accuracy IS important, but I certainly would not use a bull with a positive birth weight and negative CE number on a heifer, no matter what his accuracy was, and I look at docility the same way. Attitude is the FIRST reason they get culled around here, when we have two younger kids that I refuse to put a "nasty attitude" calf in their hands... I want to know if I am setting us up for failure or not.

 

GONEWEST

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I think a little bit of common sense is in order here. Something those who run the ASA have long forgotten about. Some of the dumbest things I have ever seen written have been written in the "Register" by ASA board members. Not nearly as dumb as the two full page article written by the now executive VP to explain why the Milk EPD who's model he designed is so inaccurate in practical application. The "Docility" EPD is just another in a long list of EPD's that have been derived in order to justify the job of those who hold positions that exist solely for that purpose. At least it is in the ASA. In the Limousin breed it was derived out of necessity.

I am sure you know how this ASA EPD is derived. The breeder "scores" the disposition on his own calves with a number system that has some guidelines for each number. Then an EPD is formulated based on all the information submitted by breeders, much as yearling weight. Except in yearling weight you have an objective number to submit. The disposition EPD is derived from a multitude of SUBJECTIVE judges and then presented as an OBJECTIVE number. What you may think is a 3 I might think is a 4. Or what might be desirable to you, having some calves with a little bit of life so they will move through the chute for instance might be scored a 1 because that's what works best for you. But the way I read the guidelines it should be a 3.

It would be nice to have a way to identify those animals that consistently cause disposition problems. But having 2000 "judges", some scoring 200 calves and some scoring 2, submitting data that is determined in a subjective manner and making that into an objective number won't do it. A little common sense could tell you that.

As to the American Pride bull I had one calf born last fall. He was the worst calf on the place. I could rub him in the pasture. I got tired of looking at him and took him to the sale barn a week ago. He weighed 410 pounds and brought over $900. I've seen a few good ones. I've heard several people say all of their calves were sale barn prospects.
 

cowboy_nyk

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Gonewest - I'm not sure that you have been told the whole story.  My father in law has been quite involved with the limo association and the development of the docility EPD.  I assume the simmi and Angus numbers are derived the same way.

The EPD in no way relates to the raw subjective number that the producer assigns to each calf.  The only effect on the EPD is from the in-herd index.  That eliminates (to some extent anyway) the confusion between what a "1, 3, or 5" docility is.  As long as a producer is consistent in his herd, the index value will be useful to determine if the animal is more/less docile than the average animal.
 

kanshow

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The Doc Epd bothers me a little in that it is subjective.  I do think it is important but also think there are so many other factors... recip, natural dam, how the calf is handled, etc.    Firesweep.. your calves are pretty much handled daily from birth?  I would  think that even a 'bad' one would be more inclined to be tame than if they were turned out in a large pasture and only see humans from a distance once a week or so.     
 
 

Davidsonranch

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Firesweep, a well rounded simmi friend of mine said to stay away from him completely.  You have some awesome foundation cows / hefiers at your place and there are a ton of other bulls I would look at before him.  Right now the Uno Mas, and Combustible calves I have seen are leading the pack.  I'm also looking at Megatron and Tailgater this year.
 

GONEWEST

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cowboy_nyk said:
Gonewest - I'm not sure that you have been told the whole story.  My father in law has been quite involved with the limo association and the development of the docility EPD.  I assume the simmi and Angus numbers are derived the same way.

The EPD in no way relates to the raw subjective number that the producer assigns to each calf.  The only effect on the EPD is from the in-herd index.  That eliminates (to some extent anyway) the confusion between what a "1, 3, or 5" docility is.  As long as a producer is consistent in his herd, the index value will be useful to determine if the animal is more/less docile than the average animal.

I'm sure you know much more about the Limousin Docility EPD model than I do. But two things about that breed are that when the idea for the docility EPD was hatched there was a tremendous need for it in that breed. The association determined the number one area for needed improvement within that breed was in disposition. And since there are/were a much higher percentage of "nuts" in that breed, there are many more of the higher number scored animals. It was/is easier to define. The Angus and Simmental breeds contain a much higher rate of animals with good temperaments. Just like in any EPD there is more variation between breeds than within breeds.

But I assume what you say is true about the Limousin EPD model being designed to reflect only in herd scoring. And because of the relatively small number of Limousin cattle registered the vast majority of those cattle are registered by a few individuals. That means the EPD's are shaped by a relatively few samples. And even so, the data is still subjective. For EPD's to truly be accurate the data that they reflect must be objective and from a large sample size. I would submit that the reason the Limousin breed has had so much success in addressing the temperament problem is that there was so much improvement available to be made. in other words there was lots of room for improvement. And that the amount of poor disposition in the breed was so easily identifiable.

If your Angus herd was really, really lacking in performance categories, in a few generations you could make tremendous progress toward improving that. But if you already had a top performing herd, you couldn't make the same amount of improvement a herd can that was poor performing. Likewise the Angus and Simmental breeds aren't able to make the same progress on temperament that the Limousin breed has because there is not the same amount of progress to be made. I would submit that the progress has been made in the Limousin breed because breeders decided to put emphasis on a trait that is easy to identify. Not because someone devised an accurate way to measure it by using a number.

I don't know of any Simmental bulls in heavy use that consistently produce temperament problems. In the 70's and 80's there certainly were. Lacombe Achilles is the first one that comes to mind. But because there is so little progress to be made in the overall breed and the fact that the data is subjective, I think this is just another useless EPD dreamed up to help justify ones job as it pertains to the Simmental breed.


 

cowboy_nyk

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I don't want to get this thread too far off the rails so I'll make my last two points quickly:

All user submitted performance data is subjective.  My scale might be inaccurate, or I might be a liar.  Either way my weights are useless as raw numbers.  That's why indexes are used to calculate epds.  That can't stop me from fudging a specific animal's numbers but it does prevent me from making my herd look superior as a group (via EPDs).  User submitted data is only as good as the person who submits it.

In my experience the Docility epd for angus has been extremely useful when selecting AI sires.  I imagine the large sample size helps with the accuracy.  I wish we had the Doc EPD in Canada.
 

Steve123

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cowboy_nyk said:
Gonewest - I'm not sure that you have been told the whole story.  My father in law has been quite involved with the limo association and the development of the docility EPD.  I assume the simmi and Angus numbers are derived the same way.

The EPD in no way relates to the raw subjective number that the producer assigns to each calf.  The only effect on the EPD is from the in-herd index.  That eliminates (to some extent anyway) the confusion between what a "1, 3, or 5" docility is.  As long as a producer is consistent in his herd, the index value will be useful to determine if the animal is more/less docile than the average animal.

If that is how it is determined that makes that particular EPD even more worthless.  An animal that is a 1 at my place could actually be a 5 at someone else's place.  Here is the definition of EPDs: "Expected Progeny Differences (EPDs) can indicate the genetic value of one specific animal compared to another specific animal of the same breed, regardless of the age or location of the herd."
http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/beef/components/homestudy/mlesson3.pdf
They need to start focusing on how to compare across breeds and stop inventing new EPD's.  As my Dad always said "If my cows could read, I'd have the best herd in the country."
 

Steve123

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cowboy_nyk said:
I don't want to get this thread too far off the rails so I'll make my last two points quickly:

All user submitted performance data is subjective.  My scale might be inaccurate, or I might be a liar.  Either way my weights are useless as raw numbers.  That's why indexes are used to calculate epds.  That can't stop me from fudging a specific animal's numbers but it does prevent me from making my herd look superior as a group (via EPDs).  User submitted data is only as good as the person who submits it.

In my experience the Docility epd for angus has been extremely useful when selecting AI sires.  I imagine the large sample size helps with the accuracy.  I wish we had the Doc EPD in Canada.

Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions-

Erroneous: wrong; incorrect.
 

cowboy_nyk

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Ok you caught me.  Wrong word.  My point still stands.  You can't complain that people can skew one data point when they can clearly affect the others as well.

If you dislike epds in general, that's ok.  They're not for everyone.  I find them helpful as an additional tool; not useful as an absolute decision making device.
 

GONEWEST

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Your point might be valid in a general discussion of EPD's. If you put garbage in you get garbage out. All you have to do to manipulate EPD's is have a large herd, use a bull with high and accurate EPD's on 1/4 of your cows and report 3/4 the rest as your own sires progeny who way outperform the proven sire.

But it's not valid in this discussion because no one mentioned anything about  intentionally trying to manipulate EPD's. It's highly unlikely that your scale is off enough to matter between sire groups. If you are trying to report correct data, weights and measurements are objective in nature. Judging confirmation, udder quality and disposition are all subjective no different than judging a steer show. Everyone knows what a good one looks like but the quality compared to another is open for interpretation. It has no chance be accurately measured by a number. Weights and measurements at least have a chance to be accurate information and while there are those who "fudge" as you say there are also many who try to report accurately. 
 

husker1

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One American Pride calf on the place, out of Ebony's Joy.  Pretty good heifer overall...maybe a little down-headed.  No disposition issue at all. 

Gonewest, she was a "1" at our place.... ;)!

 
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