Angus Bull Sires Scurred calf
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RyanChandler
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RyanChandler
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HerefordGuy said:
No, this is a picture of the Grand Champion ANGUS steer - 1985 Houston Livestock Show
HerefordGuy
Well-known member
Grand Champion steer classified as an Angus, no?-XBAR- said:
What are the names and/or registration numbers of the two bulls. I will see if they are in our data base.
HerefordGuy
Well-known member
I'm not saying that unapproved crossbreeding didn't occur. All I am saying is that I haven't seen evidence of it. If it did occur, I would be interested in showing that it did occur and at what frequency.
And were the crossbred animals pariahs? Did they succeed in the show ring but not at the AI stud, because everyone knew or were suspicious they were crossbred?
To further clarify my original point. Because a homozygous polled bulll produces a scurred progeny does not bring into question that bulls homozygous polled genotype. Also, an Angus bull being a horned carrier does not prove he is crossbred. There would need to be a genome-wide pattern of crossbreeding to have strong evidence that the bull or its ancestors were crossbred.
Let's not underestimate the power of selection.
And were the crossbred animals pariahs? Did they succeed in the show ring but not at the AI stud, because everyone knew or were suspicious they were crossbred?
To further clarify my original point. Because a homozygous polled bulll produces a scurred progeny does not bring into question that bulls homozygous polled genotype. Also, an Angus bull being a horned carrier does not prove he is crossbred. There would need to be a genome-wide pattern of crossbreeding to have strong evidence that the bull or its ancestors were crossbred.
Let's not underestimate the power of selection.
RyanChandler
Well-known member
HerefordGuy said:
The 1988 Denver GC was named Dameron Linedrive and the GC of the 80th NWSS was an Angus bull named Cobblestone Newyorker.
HerefordGuy said:
Please elaborate on this. I'm under the impression that ALL purebred Angus are Homozygous polled?
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
Only check parents (sire/dam) isn't the final proof that animal is pure. For this, a phylogenetic analysis is necessary. It is easy to use a Gebvieh cow to produce a half blood cow that isn't on shows and mate it with a Red Angus bull, producing a calf 75% AA that show a good heterosis and has both parents on DNA parentage analyzed. Ways to defraud pedigrees are well know as lots of breeders do it.
Aberdeen Angus are necessarily homozygous polled, and must poll full progeny. In other words, it is an excuse to cover up frauds!
Some well known bulls are white marker here in S.America. Also some from important and well known worldwide herds show Charolais and Holstein influence.
The PHA and TH are new defects introduced by these fashionable unofficial influences.
We need to open the eyes to some facts and take off hypocrisy as breeders!
Aberdeen Angus are necessarily homozygous polled, and must poll full progeny. In other words, it is an excuse to cover up frauds!
Some well known bulls are white marker here in S.America. Also some from important and well known worldwide herds show Charolais and Holstein influence.
The PHA and TH are new defects introduced by these fashionable unofficial influences.
We need to open the eyes to some facts and take off hypocrisy as breeders!
aj
Well-known member
I would think registered Angus should be homo polled. Now a Red Angus brought up through the upgrade b program........could they be hetero polled? And 1a Red Angus should be homo polled?
Mill Iron A
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Yes to both aj, but red angus have never been able to be bred up to 100% 1A
HerefordGuy
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-XBAR- said:
Because the polled variant is dominant, you can not physically tell a heterozygous polled animal from a homozygous polled animal. So, selection against the horned allele becomes inefficient when the horned allele is at a very low frequency in the population. See Figure 21 under Selection Against a Recessive Allele on this http://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/advanced/topics/PopGenetics/Pages/NaturalSelection.aspx webpage. So, there could theoretically be an extremely rare heterozygous polled animal within the Angus breed. This is the same explanation why there are red carriers within the breed. http://www.angus.org/Pub/DefectsAnmList.aspx?def=CAAAANTlLl0SqQj8MI0LLhhtJJk%3d&car=BgAAAHOI1vJXYX4%2bze8evIg3UTE%3d
Perhaps Angus breeders have already removed all of the horned carriers through progeny testing and other means. I'm not an Angus expert.
I looked at Dameron Linedrive. He looks like an average Angus animal from his 50,000 SNP genotypes. No evidence he is crossbred from principal component analysis (similar to a phylogenetic analysis) of his genotypes.
I could not find Cobblestone Newyorker in the Angus database to find his registration number.
As I understand it, US Angus breeders imported a lot of Angus animals from Canada in the 60's and 70's. I was under the impression this is the stock which brought the white bellies into US Angus, along with the increased growth and frame size. I guess I should have said don't underestimate the effects of selection and migration!
In regards to Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR's comment. I'm not saying breeders can't defraud pedigrees. I'm just saying I haven't seen evidence of it from the genomic data I have looked at. Perhaps defrauding pedigrees happens at very low frequency.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am simply trying to make sure that 1) the inheritance of horns and scurs is correctly understood and 2) that people are not making unsubstantiated claims about rampant crossbreeding within breed registries. Just offering alternative explanations.
"What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we would like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
cowman 52
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Cobble pond new yorker, Sek still has semen.
knabe
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Does pine drive big sky type normal?
HerefordGuy
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cowman 52 said:
He's in our data set. Again, doesn't appear to be crossbred. I do see from the Angus website that two of his great grand dams are Canadian.
I would guess that what people are attributing to crossbreeding with other breeds is really a result of importing Canadian Angus. Other countries often have very different breed ideals than US breeders have, no?
HerefordGuy
Well-known member
knabe said:
knabe! I was waiting for you to chime in.
Yes, we have genotyped Pine Drive Big Sky and he looks very typical of US Angus. We did not see any Angus that looked crossbred. We see an extremely small number of pedigree errors in our data, and no Angus animals appear to be crossbred.
In Shorthorn cattle you can really tell the different populations (Irish Shorthorns, Milking Shorthorns, Maine-Anjou, Lincoln Reds, etc.) apart. We don't see that in Angus.
cowman 52
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Rumor has it new yorker, the sire of the cobble pond was 1/2 holstien, there were a lot of them floating around at one time, they acted a lot like holstiens, do the same routine and all was fine, change it and all he'll breaks loose, good millers, white never was much of a problem. Second theory was beef fresian. The ameriifax is similar to the same thing, only they are wired some tighter.
The big cattle had a boost from a luxon of wye, they came to oklahoma in the 70's and were really different, they raised he'll till the blood type came back ok, then they seemed to just blend in.
Holts emulous pride 70 was another of the outlaws, supposedly 1/4 Maine, dam was off, sire was right. Blood type caught him,
Tiny Tim was the mule foot starter, saw several of them in the early 70's , when you trace him back you find all sorts of things.
The big cattle had a boost from a luxon of wye, they came to oklahoma in the 70's and were really different, they raised he'll till the blood type came back ok, then they seemed to just blend in.
Holts emulous pride 70 was another of the outlaws, supposedly 1/4 Maine, dam was off, sire was right. Blood type caught him,
Tiny Tim was the mule foot starter, saw several of them in the early 70's , when you trace him back you find all sorts of things.
HerefordGuy
Well-known member
HerefordGuy said:
New Yorker is not 1/2 holstein. I have done a principal component analysis with Holstein and Angus genotypes. If New Yorker was 1/2 holstein he would fall in between Angus and Holstein in the principal component plot. He in fact, falls within the Angus group.
The Wye herd is different from typical North American Angus, because they were direct imports from Scotland and were managed as a closed herd for a long time. But, they are definitely Angus.
I'm glad they caught Holts emulous pride 70. My guess would be that blood and DNA typing has caught a lot of the recent attempts at crossbreeding.
Conspiracy theories. <alien> Again, makes me think of the Sagan quote.
I find it interesting that this post started with a slight misunderstanding of the inheritance of scurs. So, to answer the original question, yes a scurred cow can produce a scurred calf when mated to a homozygous polled bull.
Anyone have experience crossing Angus and Texas Longhorns/Ankole-Watusi? I would assume many of the offspring would be scurred, but not horned.
cowman 52
Well-known member
Herefordguy, run preimier jackpot and craft lucky strike through yourndata and then we need to continue this conversation.
Freddy
Well-known member
Rumor was the guy that showed NEW YORKER was as mean as you could get, the one guy that showed him had milllion dollar life insurance policy on him....
BIG SKY had more white on his calves then the Navy wears ....
BIG SKY had more white on his calves then the Navy wears ....
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
Hot post! (clapping)
Agree with HerefordGuy regarding Way Plantation Angus. A very close inbreed herd became almost homozygous.
HerefordGuy you is right that fake pedigrees occur in low frequencies, agree with you. But if the fake pedigree is from a very popular bull as Big Sky in the Angus or Rodeo Drive in the Shorthorn (are only an examples, I'm not confirming this), this low frequency became a high frequency!
Regarding some personal experiences from many breeders (regarding Big Sky calves, New Yorker and other bulls) I'm afraid, in think that DNA analysis can not be so accurate as I believe!
Hereford Guy do you have DNA analyses about Shorthorns? How breeds were infused others than Maine, Lincoln and Irish. What sires are not really what they claim to be?
Agree with HerefordGuy regarding Way Plantation Angus. A very close inbreed herd became almost homozygous.
HerefordGuy you is right that fake pedigrees occur in low frequencies, agree with you. But if the fake pedigree is from a very popular bull as Big Sky in the Angus or Rodeo Drive in the Shorthorn (are only an examples, I'm not confirming this), this low frequency became a high frequency!
Regarding some personal experiences from many breeders (regarding Big Sky calves, New Yorker and other bulls) I'm afraid, in think that DNA analysis can not be so accurate as I believe!
Hereford Guy do you have DNA analyses about Shorthorns? How breeds were infused others than Maine, Lincoln and Irish. What sires are not really what they claim to be?
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
Do you mean to say "personal experiences" or "blatant rumors"? You believe what somebody says somebody says over a guy who has looked at the genotype and confirms this bull is not a crossbred?...
