angus defects

angus showman · Mar 4, 2010

I believe we probably have higher standards for choice meat than 290 years ago that is a long time ago. I was talking about black angus not to be confused with red angus and where can you show me in the black angus you can trace shorthorns. Also if black hided cattle are lowering the % choice don't you think that the cattle buyers would be paying more in the sale barns for colored cattle. If I were just concerned about showing sure I would show shorthorns but I see the big picture and black cattle are the most profitable. if I had to pick a color breed to raise it would be herefords or red angus. I would have to agree with cattledog less time on feed for feedlots more profit = more select beef

knabe · Mar 4, 2010

angus showman said:
I would have to agree with cattledog less time on feed for feedlots more profit = more select beef

is grain even necessary for select beef? what is the average back fat of select beef? 0.2"? it seems to me, select beef is grass fattened fed beef year round at a younger age.

advocate · Mar 4, 2010

I wont apologize for being out in the real world breeding cattle im out plenty DL maybe i need to get in more and research i dont know but i do know as a maine breeder we have a long way to go before we can say our cattle as a whole are better than other breeds for real world scenarios than many others

angus showman · Mar 4, 2010

is grain even necessary for select beef? what is the average back fat of select beef? 0.2"? it seems to me, select beef is grass fattened fed beef year round at a younger age.
[/quote]
So when you go to the store and look at a package of meat and it says select beef for the grade you assume that to be straight grass fed beef that is comical

aj · Mar 4, 2010

I mean't 20 years ago not 290. :-\

ELBEE · Mar 4, 2010

Give it up already Shorthorn guys!
We're out numbered 100 to 1. No amount of research data, scientific , or common sense is going to over power these odds.
Never under estimate the power of propaganda to the ignorant masses. (I didn't say a word about cattle buyers!)
The only way I've found to beat the system is marketing black hided 3/4 and 7/8,s Shortys (and let them be called angus), or full blood Shortys that are solid red (and let them be called cross). Lets just keep on "hobbieing" with the roans, and make sure your "freezer meat" customers don't see them before they're skinned.

Cattledog · Mar 4, 2010

knabe said:
angus showman said:

I would have to agree with cattledog less time on feed for feedlots more profit = more select beef

Click to expand...

is grain even necessary for select beef? what is the average back fat of select beef? 0.2"? it seems to me, select beef is grass fattened fed beef year round at a younger age.

I won't argue with that. I wonder what the breakdown of grass fattened beed is now compared to 20 years ago and how many of those grass fattened cattle have black hides in relation to those in the feedlot. Could turn up nothing or could be an interesting read.

r.n.reed · Mar 4, 2010

A lot of ground covered in this thread.The Angus and Hereford breeds are viable today because of men like Conrad Warren who within a few months of paying 50,000 for a bull at Denver in the forties when a dollar was worth somthing sent him to slaughter after finding out he was a dwarf carrier.Cattlemen,what you do today will effect your respective breeds and operations for years to come.
I have a lot of respect for the way the Angus breed has promoted themselves with the CAB,but I think they have opened the door for someone to grab market share now that you can get ''Angus Beef'' at any fast food retaurant.It will soon become the new average.
I n 1901 the first grand champion steer at the International was touted as a purebred angus.H e had white socks on his rear legs kind of like a lot of Shorthorns of that era

knabe · Mar 4, 2010

angus showman said:
is grain even necessary for select beef? what is the average back fat of select beef? 0.2"? it seems to me, select beef is grass fattened fed beef year round at a younger age.

So when you go to the store and look at a package of meat and it says select beef for the grade you assume that to be straight grass fed beef that is comical
[/quote]

ignorance. read the post more carefully. i'm not saying they are, but that you may not be able to tell the difference.

DL · Mar 4, 2010

angus showman said:
Why is there a need to insult another breed.

First off I have been around the livestock deal all my life and certainly don't lack knowledge within the cattle industry. I would like to be shown exactly where you can find the angus breed using shorthorn parentage within the breed. I will not dispute the fact that shorthorn may have influenced Angus cattle to where they are today. But you can also credit many other breeds however look around and see what one breed has influenced the cattle industry the most angus after all how did the other breeds become black and at the end of the day all showing aside cause we all know there is little to no profit in that the black cattle bring more than colored. I personally would rather raise cattle that preform easy calving structurally correct that calve on some kind of routine and will bring the most when you take them to market which is also on time becuse they are not hard doing . If it wasn't for the showring shorthorns wouldn't be very popular at all also correct me if i'm wrong people eat a lot more certified angus beef which only have to be a percentage of black hided than they every do kobe beef

If you have been around livestock all your life I am sure you are familiar with Dr Ritchie ...studying the history of the breed - from multiple sources will actually give you the answer - and no you won't find them listed on the pedigree - in order to be registered with the AAA you must be 100% Angus - black Angus - so don't look for anything else in the pedigree - but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

aj · Mar 4, 2010

There are some awfull good Angus cattle come out of Nebraska I know. There are alot of counterfeit black cattle.Black Gelbvieh, black Limis, black Simmental,black Salers,black Maines are all counterfeit black cattle. Its hard to visually tell a counterfit from a real black most of the time. Thus the worthlessness of the black hide deal.

angus showman · Mar 4, 2010

I would believe that steer that won the 1901 first international to be named advance not a 100% but pretty sure and yes he did have some white on his leg but there was a time you could show only angus steer with white on places other than behind the navel. If that steer was advance the americas oldest purebred angus herd raised him the Pierces also known as Woodlawn Farms Il and here is a section about the angus history that will solve my shorthorn friends myth

Shorthorn Breed Threatens the Aberdeen-Angus. In 1810, the Colling brothers of England sold the famous Shorthorn bull Comet at $5,000. The publicity resulting from this sale naturally spread throughout Scotland, and many breeders looked with favor upon the use of Shorthorn blood in improving the native cattle. Subsequently good herds of Shorthorn cattle were established in Scotland, and the cattle were used in the improvement of native stock. The use of the Shorthorn cattle on the black native cows was a very common practice of the period for the raising of commercial stock. This practice of crossbreeding threatened the Aberdeen-Angus breed with extinction.

It is often suggested that some Shorthorn blood found its way into the Aberdeen-Angus breed prior to the time the Herd Book was closed. Alexander Keith, secretary of the Aberdeen-Angus Cattle Society from 1944 to 1955, takes exception to this opinion by writing:

The statement has been frequently made that shorthorn blood was introduced into the Aberdeen-Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. There is no foundation whatever for such a statement. The tribes from which the Aberdeen-Angus breed were drawn were supplying England with beef cattle for generations before what became the beef Shorthorn was taken across the Border into Scotland and improved into what is known as the Scotch Shorthorn. Of the Aberdeen-Angus pioneers, Hugh Watson had a certain number of Shorthorn cattle, but it is quite evident from his won remarks and his insistence upon the blackness of his Aberdeen-Angus cattle that he would never have permitted mixing them. And McCombie: when one or two farmers introduced the Teeswater or Shorthorn breed into his neighborhood he drove them out by completely dominating the local shows with his Aberdeen-Angus black polls. The feeling of the early improvers of Aberdeen-Angus cattle may be gathered from the fact that my own grandfather, who was one of McCombie’s friends and associates, would not allow anything but a black beast on his farm and in his old age when I was a young boy he would insist that if I ever became a farmer and wished to be a successful feeder of cattle I must stick rigidly to the Blacks.

Reference:

Briggs, H.M. & D.M. Briggs. Modern Breeds of Livestock. Fourth Edition. Macmillan Publishing Co. 1980 (reprinted with permission from Dr. Briggs).

aj · Mar 4, 2010

I always heard that when the AAA threatened to throw some enkony(spelling error) cattle out of the Angus book ikony threated a lawsuit in tghe 1980's. The AAA backed down and all the Chi and Amerifax blood cattle were not thrown out. I have heard that there is so much different foreign blood floating around in the breed it would be impossible to clear stuff up. There are even honest mistakes of holsteins jumping fences and breeding Angus cows without any knowing about it. I have to wonder about the frame score 9 Angus being shown in the 1980's .jmo

stithka · Mar 4, 2010

angus showman said:
I would believe that steer that won the 1901 first international to be named advance not a 100% but pretty sure and yes he did have some white on his leg but there was a time you could show only angus steer with white on places other than behind the navel. If that steer was advance the americas oldest purebred angus herd raised him the Pierces also known as Woodlawn Farms Il and here is a section about the angus history that will solve my shorthorn friends myth

Shorthorn Breed Threatens the Aberdeen-Angus. In 1810, the Colling brothers of England sold the famous Shorthorn bull Comet at $5,000. The publicity resulting from this sale naturally spread throughout Scotland, and many breeders looked with favor upon the use of Shorthorn blood in improving the native cattle. Subsequently good herds of Shorthorn cattle were established in Scotland, and the cattle were used in the improvement of native stock. The use of the Shorthorn cattle on the black native cows was a very common practice of the period for the raising of commercial stock. This practice of crossbreeding threatened the Aberdeen-Angus breed with extinction.

It is often suggested that some Shorthorn blood found its way into the Aberdeen-Angus breed prior to the time the Herd Book was closed. Alexander Keith, secretary of the Aberdeen-Angus Cattle Society from 1944 to 1955, takes exception to this opinion by writing:

The statement has been frequently made that shorthorn blood was introduced into the Aberdeen-Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. There is no foundation whatever for such a statement. The tribes from which the Aberdeen-Angus breed were drawn were supplying England with beef cattle for generations before what became the beef Shorthorn was taken across the Border into Scotland and improved into what is known as the Scotch Shorthorn. Of the Aberdeen-Angus pioneers, Hugh Watson had a certain number of Shorthorn cattle, but it is quite evident from his won remarks and his insistence upon the blackness of his Aberdeen-Angus cattle that he would never have permitted mixing them. And McCombie: when one or two farmers introduced the Teeswater or Shorthorn breed into his neighborhood he drove them out by completely dominating the local shows with his Aberdeen-Angus black polls. The feeling of the early improvers of Aberdeen-Angus cattle may be gathered from the fact that my own grandfather, who was one of McCombie’s friends and associates, would not allow anything but a black beast on his farm and in his old age when I was a young boy he would insist that if I ever became a farmer and wished to be a successful feeder of cattle I must stick rigidly to the Blacks.

Reference:

Briggs, H.M. & D.M. Briggs. Modern Breeds of Livestock. Fourth Edition. Macmillan Publishing Co. 1980 (reprinted with permission from Dr. Briggs).

I am glad you backed your opinion up with research of the topic. There are a lot of people with opinions based out of jealousy toward the angus breed that post "facts" that have no basis of truth. We have to acknowledge the success of the angus breed. They excel in maternal and carcass traits that lead to profitability in the cattle business.

The Angus defects will have no consequences on the Maine registry if they properly monitor them to avoid breeding carrier animals. We know the club calf breeders are very accurate with reporting their sires, performance data, scan data, and other performance measures to accurately calculate their pedigrees and EPD profiles. (This is sarcasm.)

Thank you angus showman for your post.

aj · Mar 4, 2010

Cool...then the red gene is a true mutation then....or are Red Angus real Angus?

Cowfarmer65 · Mar 4, 2010

Well I guess I stand corrected..............NOT...............angus showman.......shame on you..........what you are trying to do here, to put it bluntly, is say All other breeds of cattle that register % cattle and acknowlege the influence of other breeds are crooked and no Angus breeder would ever have used anything other than Angus to breed for the fad of the day.............Open your eyes. There truly is no purebred breeds left in the world. If you are honest with yourself, and think for a while, you'll remember a certain bull or cow in the Angus that you, yourself questioned if the breeder was being honest about the genetics. Swallow your pride and drive on. It's too bad all animals in all breeds couldn't have been blood tested in the early 70's. Perhaps without outside influence in some breeds, the cattle industry would look alot different and your Angus Associations would have an appendix program in place. They would have had to do something with all the crossbreds. Remember this......I've said it a thousand times about the EPD's. The pen and paper that those things are written on are only as honest as the person writing them......It's the same with pedigrees.

Cattledog · Mar 4, 2010

Cowfarmer65 said:
your Angus Associations would have an appendix program in place.

I don't know about this. Appendix programs aren't in place to improve or change the phenotype of a breed of cattle. They are in place to raise money for the association. I may be wrong but I think they already had a pretty sizable registry at that time.

knabe · Mar 4, 2010

i don't really care about the purity of anything. it really doesn't matter. my point is, that about 8 years ago till recently, some popular maine's were used on not yet known defect cattle, at least by the purchaser and maybe that's why they were sold because seller knew but didn't know what was going on and the angus mother was bred to say ali, then bred to say sooner, and then to the next popular maine bull, all the while carrying those angus defects. the angus will have cleaned themselves up by the time the maine's find out, and then maine's will be scapegoated as the defect breed, while the angus breed, harboring defects all these years, will have escaped scrutiny again.

one can look at the family tree produced by jerry taylor to see similarities. i think all cattle came from auroch's so what's the big deal. it's more a problem with marketing than anything else. one could conclude ankony had money and that overrode any concerns of purity. big deal.

Cattledog · Mar 4, 2010

knabe said:
i don't really care about the purity of anything. it really doesn't matter. my point is, that about 8 years ago till recently, some popular maine's were used on not yet known defect cattle, at least by the purchaser and maybe that's why they were sold because seller knew but didn't know what was going on and the angus mother was bred to say ali, then bred to say sooner, and then to the next popular maine bull, all the while carrying those angus defects. the angus will have cleaned themselves up by the time the maine's find out, and then maine's will be scapegoated as the defect breed, while the angus breed, harboring defects all these years, will have escaped scrutiny again.

There is one way to keep the scrutiny on the angus. Quit using Angus genetics. That's a tough proposition isn't it. When an industry depends on a single breed for so much you have to learn to take the good with the bad.

garybob · Mar 4, 2010

aj said:
Garybob. Not much of tv or movie guy. Never seen "City slickers". Guess I don't get your insult. I'll try and catch it if it comes to the drive in though.

I wasn't man! I was goading the other side of the argument. I'm with You, man!

angus defects

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