Angus defects

In flopping open a few angus bull sale catalogs i'm surprised to see some sales have 20 per cent carrying defects.  i figured the angus people would put a knife to any carrier quicker than other breeds.  I guess it seems to me the females out of these carriers out in these large commercial herds are going to get lost in the herd.  Most commercial cow calf guys aren't gonna know whether that heifer calf is out of carriers or not if there buying these bulls.  I guess you have to blame it on the buyers for being naive as well.  One sale had carriers bringing 3,000 regularly.  Any thoughts.

I think this is the last year that you can register carriers for Hydro and Curly calf so the sale of these defects should be ending soon.  If I would have had any carriers in my calf crop I would have gotten rid of every last one of them!

I guess if you want to take on the task of increased management, having a carrier wouldn't be that bad.  I would think that managing something like scours is a bigger management issue than defects.  If every calf resulting from a defect carrier is to be put in a feedlot where there is no intention of keeping replacement females or breeding bulls, the buyer may have just purchased the best bull in the sale at a huge discount.

Some scenarios may be very accepting of a defect bull!

Selling REGISTERED carriers will end soon, but I fear many will be "commercial angus" bulls and females.  And yes, they will get lost in a herd and then the back lash will start.
I honestly do not think you can blame the buyers... do you blame toyota car buyers for buying a defective car?  I mean, it coming obvious that toyota new about the defects long before any "buyers" did. So does that mean they are to blame? Your rationale they do.

I think it is the breeders responsibility to explain all the defects in full detail to all prosepective buyers.

But I do think many of the old carrier bulls are fading away due to the fact you can't register carrier offspring. Some will still dump carriers as long as they can, just like in other breeds, but once educated, many buyers will not buy "commercial angus" cattle anymore.

Show Heifer said:

I honestly do not think you can blame the buyers... do you blame toyota car buyers for buying a defective car? 

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There's a difference here.  When the buyer of a Toyota bought the car I highly doubt the sticker stated the defect of having a gas pedal sticking or the brakes not working properly.  In the catalog that Farwest is refering too, it had the genetic defects listed.  The buyer should be prepared to manage this defect if they know about it. 

Just wonderin.....maybe I misunderstood you post.  Are you only referring to the people who just buy a bull and don't care about pedigree or papers?  As a breeder the seller should know his product and not sell commercial breeding stock if there is a chance of defects, and I am with you that it wouldn't be the fault of the buyer.

Some in the angus breed will continue to use carriers, then register the "free" ones. The carriers can not be registered, so my fear is that they will be sold to unsuspecting buyers as "commercial" or "unregistered" angus.  Your exactly right, a breeder SHOULD know his product and not sell commercial breeding stock if there is a chance for defects. But that didn't, and doesn't happen in the clubbie world, maine world, or shortie world. Cattle are sold without full disclosure. The same will happen in the angus breed.

Some on here have mentioned in the past about how the buyer should be responsible for asking about the defective status of cattle, even they are new and or young. Well, if you don't KNOW about genetic defects, how would you know to ask about them?  Just like the Toyota example. Since the buyers didn't KNOW about the defects, are they still responsible for buying a defective car. I do not think so.

I did not see the cattle farwest was refering to. If they listed ALL the information in the catalog, INCLUDING testing all offspring, then yes, the buyer should be aware. But wouldn't it be nice if it was announced on the block "this animal is tested free" or "this animal is tested as a carrier"..... 

Show Heifer said:

I did not see the cattle farwest was refering to. If they listed ALL the information in the catalog, INCLUDING testing all offspring, then yes, the buyer should be aware. But wouldn't it be nice if it was announced on the block "this animal is tested free" or "this animal is tested as a carrier"..... 

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I guarantee that the auctioneer would say that an animal is tested free.  It would be the latter that they would conveniently not announce! 

It should be buyer beware when buying any commercial Angus cattle.  However, known carriers can be managed in purebred herd or in a crossbred program.  As long as seller disclose the defect status I don't see a problem.

I believe the rule in Canada is that beginning in 2010, all calves that have carriers in their parents and/or grand-parents must have their calves tested and they must free of all defects to be allowed to be registered.

As showheifer said. They will get lost in ommercial herds. I think sellin 30 bulls out of 150 that are angus defect carriers to commercial cattlemen is bs. Not taking away from 500 head commercial guys. But I question if they are uninformed, naïve. Think hasn't happened yet why would it. The bull producer knows better. He sure as hell wouldn't buy one.

With the number of 1680 and Future Direction, etc. genetics that has been used in commercial herds over the years, there has to be a high number of carriers in commercial herds.  I am surprised we don't hear more about hydro and curly in commercial herds -- maybe happens more than we know.

GoWyo said:

there has to be a high number of carriers in commercial herds. 

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what association cares about commercial cattlemen and reporting defects and helping them out?

is there any precedent of any purebred association investigating a commercial herd defect?

show cattle don't count.

None that I know of.  When the AM news broke in Sept. 08 and the NH shortly thereafter, there were a few blurbs in the general livestock publications, but not a lot.  The commercial outfits don't necessarily receive the breed publications unless they are members of the association.  Had I not been reading SP and some other cattle websites, I would not have known a thing about it.  I have some friends who are commercial cow-calf guys and when I started talking about some of the various defects in Angus and TH, PHA, etc. they had never heard of any of it because they have no contact with the show cattle world.  These guys are running 300-head herds and up with maybe one employee.  They are busy and the genetic defect issues take time to research and figure out.  If they haven't gotten one yet, they don't worry too much about it.  Thus, my comment that there would have to be quite a few carriers, but we haven't heard of it from the commercial guys.  Whether commercial herds see much genetic defects or not it seems it would be in the various associations' interests to get the word out to the commercial guys.  I do recall an ad by the Angus Assoc. not too long ago urging commercial guys to insist on registered Angus bulls - can't recall where I read that though.

just a feeling, but it would seem most defects in commercial herds show up as losses, ie dead calves, dead mothers and they never see them because they get eaten on.

the Gardiners are doing everything they can to make sure the bull buyers,who are mostly commercial guys know about it.they have openly admitted they are the home of it and stand behind their cattle.at our futurity sale this year,we were not going to allow selling carriers,but somehow 2 got put in.it was announced they were carriers,the AAA has put everything they have on the defects out to their members.i cant imagine any honest seedstock producer not telling his customer about the defects.there alot of reputations on the line. jmo,rusty

Sorry A3, but after gardiners line bred their cattle FOR YEARS, and then denied in the beginning that anything was wrong, I have a hard time passing the "love" to them now. Could have gotten a hold of this years before. It was only after the harassment, and total pestering of an Iowa angus breedeer that these defects finally came to light! Had absolutely nothing to do with gardiners "doing the right thing." They were finally just caught.
I would have also thought you could have told the owners of the carrier bulls TO TAKE THEM HOME if your state assoc had decided not to sell carriers.
I can't imagine an honest seedstock producer not telling their customers about defects either, but it happens.  Easiest way to get commercial guys attention is to talk to them about their dead calves.... how would you feel if you were coffee talk shop talking and someone said, "Geesh, sounds like a NH/AM/TH/PHA/ IB/FC calf. Too bad the bull seller didn't tell you those are genetic and could have been 100% avoided."  In your face education will get to them. I can prove it!

I think the angus has tried to get the word out. It has been in mag's, radio, etc. much more than the TH/PHA, so maybe we are learning. As the younger cattleman take over (read as: The "done it this year for the last 20 years" crowd, and the "check out all this info we can get about their DNA" crowd) we will see a huge swing. At least the black angus breed is trying.... the red angus breed is still in denial, and are actually telling commercial guys to buy carrier bulls.
Maybe their bubble won't last so long after all...

Sorry A3 - looking at the catalogs one often sees untested animals with carriers in their pedigree - both bulls and heifers - it is much like what happened with PHA and TH - some people just have to dump their carriers so they can recoup their $ - IMHO how people deal with lethal recessive defects in cattle gives you a good view of who you want to do business with and you you want to steer clear of

DL ,I knew you were lurking around looking for a genetic stir up.every angus sale catalog I received lately and I dont get them all ,list if they are carriers.KAA BOARD OF DIRECTORS said at the futurity we would not sale or promote carriers,a little confusion and somehow they were entered.we as a board were upset,but it was too late.I know the Gardiners they dont try to get away with anything,they dont have too.alot of breeders are using the carriers as recips also.rusty

The Angus Assn. has been very transparent in this whole process.  Maybe some of the breeders have not been.  There has been a great attempt by the Assn. to get this information to the public.  Carrier (and clean) cattle are noted.  Those that need to be tested are noted.  Buyers have some responsibility in knowing what is going on.  I don't agree with someone who chooses to sell a carrier back into the commercial herds but that is there decision and they have a responsilbility to educate their customers as well.

BTW, all bull calves born in 2009 or before that descend from a known carrier must be tested in order to be registered regardless of AMC/AMF status.  All bulls born on or after 1/10/2010 must be tested and test clean in order to be registered.  All bulls born before 6/14/2010 must be tested for NH and allowed to be registered regardless of status.  All bulls born on or after 6/15/2010 must test NHC to be registered.  A similar policy is in effect for females with the dates being 1/01/2012 that they must test AMC and 6/15/2012 that they must test NHC to be registered.

Linebreeding is not what produced this problem.  Linebreeding has been practiced for years, forever.  Linebreeding only revealed the defects.  Perhaps some of you should study pedigrees more closely just to see that.  Check out how some folks have wrapped some bulls in a pedigree. Look at  New Trend (responsible for New Design and New Day among others) and Traveler and Bando (the originals are actually half brothers...and Bando is the sire of 1680). 

the "problem" with linebreeding is you have to cull more often early rather than later when a defect shows up.

it's like the fram commercial.  you can pay me now (ususally less), or you can pay me later (usually more) for not linebreeding or test crossing.

i pretty much have concentrated looking for close matings rather than the opposite