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Author Topic: Angus Sale Catalogs  (Read 2442 times)

Offline Jeff_Schroeder

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Angus Sale Catalogs
« on: February 12, 2008, 10:34:24 AM »
Am I the only one that just laughs these things now?  Entire sale catalogs are now nothing more than listings of insane prices for cattle with some type of association with the lot in question.

"She is a direct daughter of the $200,000 Southern donor GAR Precision 1709 who is in turn a direct daughter of the $400,000 GAR EXT 614, the famous Deer Valley donor whose daughter Deer Valley Rita 7105 recently set world record at a $610,000 value."

I realize inflated prices are now a breed characteristic of Angus but that is just silly.  They're just throwing as many insane numbers into these catalogs as they can.

Offline Longway Ranch - SK, Canada

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 10:42:33 AM »
I absolutely agree.  It is like they expect you to shovel out the same kind of money.  I dont give a rats butt about how much their entire family made, I just want to know what the animal looks like!!
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Offline showsteernc

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 11:07:47 AM »
What I want to know is how in the world can these farms that pay so much for a single animal or flush actually make money in the long run. It seems virtually impossible to me. I know I say this alot but how are these 6 figure prices going to help the commercial farmer and in turn the beef industry as a whole? I just cant see the benefit of such high prices.

Offline knabe

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 11:10:52 AM »
it's to make you feel like you are getting a deal

the cutting horse association is even worse, as they usually only emphasize "black type" and totally disregard everything else.

the idea is to not make profit in the commodity arena, but to perpetuate the ponzi scheme.

when the tests for the two dwarf types and fawn calf hit the fan, it should be really funny to see those prices come back to non-trader prices and writeoff free fair pricing.

in the mean time, the palate of the american is changing to tolerate less quality meat, while producers keep trying to raise quality with little reward in site for a diminishing market.
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Offline SRU

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 12:18:27 PM »
What I want to know is how in the world can these farms that pay so much for a single animal or flush actually make money in the long run. It seems virtually impossible to me. I know I say this alot but how are these 6 figure prices going to help the commercial farmer and in turn the beef industry as a whole? I just cant see the benefit of such high prices.

they aren't farms. they are hobbies for the extremely weatlhy.  i think it is the deer valley guy that sold his company for 900,000,000 and then decided to buy a ranch.  bob funk, the owner of express ranches, has a net worth near a $billion, or very near it, from his staffing business.  don't think for a minute that these two guys are cattlemen.  they hire great cattlemen.
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Offline knabe

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 12:42:59 PM »
and would that be jarold callohan? ;D

gotta say, Summitcrest High Prime 0H29 is one of the heavier muscled "carcass" bulls

http://www.summitcrest.com/herdsires/SummitcrestHighPrime0H29.html

http://angussemen.com/epd.asp?ID=427   is an earlier pic where he does have a more dairy look

some of the blanks on the marbling and quality grade may be because they were not tested.

During the spring of 2001, we experienced a highly unusual first for our program. As we harvested the progeny of a son of Gardens Prime Time that we had sold to our volume repeat bull customers, the Bill Zutavern family, we discovered that 100% of the official test progeny of the bull we renamed Summitcrest High Prime 0H29 had qualified for the elite Certified Angus Beef brand. To our knowledge, no other bull has ever achieved this pinnacle. In the Fall 2001 NSE report, Summitcrest High Prime became an immediate Marbling EPD leader. We offered one third interest of Summitcrest High Prime 0H29 in our 2001 Fall Elite Female Sale in Iowa. Beartooth Ranch, Edwards Ranches, Express Ranches and Three Trees Ranch joined forces to bid $90,000 for that third interest to make him the all-time top-seller for our program. Progeny of Summitcrest High Prime have enjoyed great popularity across the continent and in our 2003 Fall Elite Female Sale in Iowa, 30 spring heifer calves by him commanded an average price of more than $5,000. The top-selling spring yearling bull at public auction in 2004 was Three Trees Next Step, a son of Summitcrest High Prime that sold half interest for $100,000. If Summitcrest High Prime 0H29 follows the path blazed by 0B45 and 3B18, the greatest days for this bull born in 1998 are still likely three to four years ahead.

it would appear there are more genes for marbling than the bovigen panel
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Offline chambero

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 12:54:19 PM »
One of these days they'll piss off the wrong person and someone with enough political clout will get an Attorney General after them for fraud.  This stuff is really ridiculous.

There's plenty of good cattle elsewhere.

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 03:28:38 PM »
First off.....these over inflated prices are not just in the angus...have you read a shortie catalog or worse a clubbie catalog?
And do people REALLY honestly believe "the grand-daughter of the great ABC cow and sired by the $million  XY sire". Do people understand genetics? Come on.....does the sale management or note writer really think I care if the 10 year old cow was a national champion a decade ago when cattle are NOTHING like they are now? Do they think I care if the calf has 10% of the genes of a cow that sold to some idiot for $50,000 5 years ago? Give me just a little bit of credit.

What do I want in a sale catalog: EPD's, actual WW, YW,  scan information. Calving interval of dam (if bull) or of the cow.
Pedigree (no other notes, just the pedigree). 

If I want bull crap, I will go to the barn.
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Offline knabe

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 03:53:59 PM »
these catalogs are pretty funny.  almost like our election this year, a bunch of puffed up nothingness based on nothing for people who who are fooled by nothing.  this is exactly why i am for soem sort of income or revenue based tax without exemptions of ANY kind.  then, we would know the real price.  but since the people who push this system basically write the laws, nothing will change.  oops, if we just elect change, we will get it.  hardly, it will just be a different group guaranteeing profit without work at the expense of everyone else.  it doesn't matter if it's from the righ or the left, it's still wrong.  the catalogs are just like the news now, except the opposite, instead of manufactured controversy, it's manufactured unity for a system that benefits the few, packaged in a format that legitimizes the personality cult.
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Offline itk

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 04:16:09 PM »
First off.....these over inflated prices are not just in the angus...have you read a shortie catalog or worse a clubbie catalog?
And do people REALLY honestly believe "the grand-daughter of the great ABC cow and sired by the $million  XY sire". Do people understand genetics? Come on.....does the sale management or note writer really think I care if the 10 year old cow was a national champion a decade ago when cattle are NOTHING like they are now? Do they think I care if the calf has 10% of the genes of a cow that sold to some idiot for $50,000 5 years ago? Give me just a little bit of credit.

What do I want in a sale catalog: EPD's, actual WW, YW,  scan information. Calving interval of dam (if bull) or of the cow.
Pedigree (no other notes, just the pedigree). 

If I want bull crap, I will go to the barn.

I think that footnotes are enjoyable and educational. They can give you a insight on breeding philosophies and program objectives you can't get from just numbers.  I can't stand to look at catalogs that only contain numbers and pedigrees. Cows that were National Champions ten years ago probally had a grand dam that was a National Champion 20 years ago and in ten more years the said cow will probally be the grand dam of another national champion. Great cow families are always relevant and can change with the times. Footnotes are also helpful for someone who is new to the breed and wanting to learn. EPD's and other data can be skewed by management pratices and the calving interval on a donor cow isn't that great.
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Offline chambero

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 04:27:53 PM »
First of all, I really like Angus cattle.  But......

A very wealthy "rancher" that borders us was a fairly "big" Angus breeder down here.  His parents were apparently in the Angus business a long time ago, he made a WHOLE LOT of money building houses, and bought out some herd and used to go and buy Gardiners high sellers every year.  Lo and behold the house business goes south down here and he disperses last fall.

The "people" from the Angus Assoc. are running his sale for him.  He has a bunch of yearling bulls, for which there is a big demand down here.  However, the Angus people convince him to cut about 90% of them and send them to the sale barn to make the other 10% bring a little more.  Never mind he had buyers lined up to buy those bulls for real market bull prices.  Those buyers got hacked off and didn't bother with his sale.  But his "average" looked good - even though he left a few tens of thousands on the table based on their knowledgable advice.  We all just kind of sit back and snicker because the owner had scr**** a couple of the old time ranchers that leased some of the land he bought out from under them for his play toy.  And he wonders why his billion dollar company listed on the Dow isn't doing so hot.  I hope he builds houses better than he raises cattle.

There is a difference between "Angus" breeders and cattlemen that run Angus cattle.  There ain't much difference in the animals themselves.

Offline showsteernc

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 04:31:56 PM »
Which one are you saying is better? (:))

Offline knabe

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 04:44:16 PM »
once again, an artificial shortage distorts price.  to me, the difference is insignificant enough to not matter as long as you are driving your herd, rather than price.  we are easily fooled that we can know nothing, and the reinforcements are strong.  america is about indepdence.  be indepedent.  it's what everyone in the world aspires to be.  that's why they want to come here.  it's still basically the only place you can do it legally.
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Offline Doc

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 07:53:07 PM »
  I've got to agree with ITK . I believe "Like begets like". I really believe in a strong cow family to build your base from. I like to see that a full brother who was a year older topped the test or a full sister produced a Nat'l Champ. It's not a guarantee that he or she is going to do the same ,but your odds are better than some animal that comes out of the woodwork to win a Nat'l Champ with a pedigree you've never heard of. I agree on these super inflated prices in footnotes don't do anything for me either , I think they're put in there for the "One born every minute". JMO 
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Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Angus Sale Catalogs
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 08:12:36 PM »
Doc, you threw in some different words that make a HUGE difference: FULL BROTHER/SISTER. That is a lot different than "the great granddaughter of the champion in 1980."  Agreed?

I just got a catalog that had a photo of the champion cow at some "national show" (I forget which one), but I know the people standing behind the cow and you couldn't see their faces and they are over 6 feet tall! The calf standing by the cow was at least 1/2 as tall as the cow, and a guttless wonder with no bone or guts. Is that what we are looking for today? Does that photo impress me? NO.
If I want to know the breeders philosophies or program, I would call the breeder and ask....footnotes that are usually written by the sale manager give you no idea what the "program" is about.

But I do agree that EPD's are easliy manipulated and "adjusted" which is why I buy from only people I respect, trust, and believe in....I don't do business with people/programs I don't 100% trust and respect....just a peeve of mine.
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