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Offline knabe

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2009, 12:32:46 PM »
Knabe,Lets say you were able to test those cows in that particular environment for efficiency and then flushed them put the embryos in recips in a different environment raised the heifers to cows in that new environment and tested again for efficiency.Would the same lines excel?Assuming all cows are the same breed.


it would be the offspring from the cows in the new environment that i would be interested in to see how they produce and then only to sell into similar environment, something most on here aren't interested in.

for more on this perspective, look up..


epigentics
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060807154715.htm
http://www.geneimprint.com/site/meetings/2005-durham
http://science.howstuffworks.com/genetic-science/epigenetics.htm/printable
http://www.sciencentral.com/video/2008/10/21/inherited-obesity-is-amplified-across-generations/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html   this one is reaalllllly good and probably a repeat of some of the above.

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2009, 01:17:34 PM »
Thank you Knabe,I think.
Gary Kaper

Offline aj

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2009, 06:09:49 PM »
The one good thing about natural selection is it will eventually select for alot of economical traits.The birthing process will eliminate big bwt bulls and also cows with smaller pelvics. If a calf is born to a cow with a bad udder in a spring storm these genetics will not survive. If a cow milks to hard for her enviroment she will not breed back. If she is hard keeping she will have shorter stayability if not rebreeding problems. If a bull is not fertile or have high libido the other bull(if multiple bulls are used) will not propagate his genetics. I do know if you sell a big bwt,hard keeping bull to a experienced cow calf guy it will not take him long to figure it out. Alot of people blast Kit Pharos idealology but by god he is closer to what commercial cow-calf people need than 90% of the purebred show guys.If you take away the glamour photos and gut spreading beat pulp and creep feeding and false birth dates and all the wda and all the other artificial enviroment factor deals you can't fake it out in the country. The show ring is great for strucural correctness issues and alot of other phenotype stuff but dang it flat gets out of controll and I think we tend to forget what we are suppossed to be about.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Online Doc

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2009, 07:49:34 PM »
The show ring is great for strucural correctness issues and alot of other phenotype stuff but dang it flat gets out of controll and I think we tend to forget what we are suppossed to be about.

 You make it sound like aiming for the showring is as bad as being an Obama supporter  ;D. Some of us are not trying to sell commercial cattle, but instead are just trying to sell a few show calves. I, myself am content with selling a few show calves, a freezer beef or 2 & a bred female. I will admit i,t is interesting at L'ville seeing some of those 850 lb April hfrs that you don't see next year as a yrling or they only weigh 1100 lbs 6 months later. But not all show cattle are like that . JMO
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline aj

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2009, 09:52:49 PM »
I understand....and good point. I don't think these discussions,debates,arguements, or cussings are made to be won or lost but friendly disscussions are important. I think the youth need to hear different sides of issues and formulate their arguements in their heads to assimilate their beliefs. I know when traveling between judging contests in my day our coach would randomly assign two people a different breed and we would then verbally defend,promote, stress the breeds usefullness and whatever. We had some near wrestling matches defending a breed we would never be involved with. It helps with salesmanship when you think in terms of debate. It is good to understand debating techniques. I get stall blind and I get new info on here. The youth need to hear new ideas. Us burnt out bastards are hopeless.jmo
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2009, 10:21:12 PM »
I am not a shorthorn breeder but I think this applies to all breeds and/or commercial opperations. The ideal cow is the one that makes you the most money. Pharo was mentioned in a previous post and while he is a tremendous promoter of his "type" of cattle and they may work in his opperation, if I tried to make my living off of that type of cattle I would soon be looking for a new way to make a living. He is the only man I have ever heard of that strives for 20% open cows after a breeding season. His theory as I read it was that if you didn't have 20% opens you weren't maximizing your forage. In my little part of the world we refer to that as over grazing and I have yet to ever make money on an open cow let alone 20% opens. But there are those that consider him to be a bovine guru and that's fine. I like my bigger cows that make all of the payments around here and have long since shipped the smaller cows that generally produced average sale barn calves. My point here being that what works for you in your enviroment is the ideal cow, if you do this for a living and not a hobby you will figure out what makes money and what just eats grass. RW
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Offline susie Q

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 11:31:54 PM »
The one good thing about natural selection is it will eventually select for alot of economical traits.The birthing process will eliminate big bwt bulls and also cows with smaller pelvics. If a calf is born to a cow with a bad udder in a spring storm these genetics will not survive. If a cow milks to hard for her enviroment she will not breed back. If she is hard keeping she will have shorter stayability if not rebreeding problems. If a bull is not fertile or have high libido the other bull(if multiple bulls are used) will not propagate his genetics. I do know if you sell a big bwt,hard keeping bull to a experienced cow calf guy it will not take him long to figure it out. Alot of people blast Kit Pharos idealology but by god he is closer to what commercial cow-calf people need than 90% of the purebred show guys.If you take away the glamour photos and gut spreading beat pulp and creep feeding and false birth dates and all the wda and all the other artificial enviroment factor deals you can't fake it out in the country. The show ring is great for strucural correctness issues and alot of other phenotype stuff but dang it flat gets out of controll and I think we tend to forget what we are suppossed to be about.

I havnt been on here in awhile and frankly it seems like this where we left off. I would go broke if I created a Shorthorn program solely on marketing a SH to another  SH breeder? What's the fun in that ? Distribution of product and growth of breed! Carm thanks for the post and request for a beef type shorty - those breeders are out there and some never left.

Offline Carm

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2009, 04:18:25 PM »
Thanks to all who responded.  Especially the suggestions in the earlier replies.  I have gotten some good ideas and suggestions and a few helpful personal messages. 

I don't want to sound like a sell out, but would it work to just use another breed once on some cows.  Like  Copyright or something that would make a big first step and then breed up from there with Shorthorns.  I have the patience. 


Offline aj

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2009, 08:38:32 PM »
The nca data I saw ranked Iowa as the 10 state as far far as cow calf population. So as Iowa goes so does the U.S.A. I guess.Its hard to argue with sucess. Does anyone know how many cows are in cherry county? It is a big county I know but that is cool country.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2009, 08:59:58 PM »
Carm......Don Cagwin may have some good advice on developing a successfull shorthorn program. I have been told that the average life span of the average purebred herd is 6 years. So best of luck.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Davis Shorthorns

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2009, 01:20:22 AM »
Thanks to all who responded.  Especially the suggestions in the earlier replies.  I have gotten some good ideas and suggestions and a few helpful personal messages. 

I don't want to sound like a sell out, but would it work to just use another breed once on some cows.  Like  Copyright or something that would make a big first step and then breed up from there with Shorthorns.  I have the patience. 



Right now I have a Durham red heifer that after her first calf will be breed up.  I think that shorthorns have a lot to offer the commercial guy, but right now for me it doesn't hurt to have a shot of something else to help along the process. 
I like Cows.  That is all.

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2009, 03:01:44 AM »
I'm not sure, but I THINK, much like DL said,  if I wanted some cattle like Ohlde's, why the first place I'd check into would be............Tim Ohlde.  ???

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2009, 07:30:09 AM »
I agree with Gonewest.Rather than trying to blend diverse bloodlines to reach your breeding goals start with the closest thing you can find to that type that is reliably bred to be that way and save your self a lot of time and maybe some money too.
Gary Kaper

Offline justintime

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2009, 08:30:29 AM »
I agree with many of the thoughts expressed here regarding breeding up to a desired goal. Some of the best cattle in many breeds have been arrived at through the grading up process. Take a look at the Charolais , Simmental, Maine, Limousin, and many others to see how this has taken place. Virtually all the Charolais breed consists of cattle that were bred up to purebred status from some other breed. There are a few herds that are maintaining the Full French bloodlines, and this is a good thing, as it provides genetics that breeders can go back to, to infuse back into their breeding programs from time to time.The same can be said for many other breeds.

I am a big believer in grading up programs, as they provide a method of documentation for breeders. I know there are some people who think so called " purebred" ( or in the Shorthorn breed... non asterisk) cattle are superior, but I do not agree with this premise. I know enough about several bloodlines to know that there are many cattle in closed herd books that are much less purebred than  many cattle in the appendix programs.

One of the best lines of cattle I ever produced started from my white Shorthorn herd bull breeding a  black half blood Simmental female back in the 1970s. We tried to abort the calf but this Simmental cow really must have wanted this calf as we retained the pregnancy after three shots of Estumate. She had a red roan heifer calf that was simply amazing. We were very fortunate as we were able to breed her up to purebred level very quickly as the first calf born in each succeeding generation was a heifer calf.  Many of this line were our best show cattle and also our best sale cattle. I smile often when I see this bloodline in some of today's non apprendix " purebred" pedigrees. This has occurred because for a period of time in the early 90s, our breed association allowed graded up cattle that had achieved purebred status to move back into the closed herd book. It is funny how things go around, because they are now doing the same thing again.

I have attached a picture of a little project I have right now. This is a rather poor picture of this heifer, but it is the only one I presently have ( and I am too busy today to go out and snap a better one!)  This heifer is now a yearling heifer, and she is two generations from a purebred Angus cow. Her mother is a solid black half blood cow. We kept her to be a recip but she is a very good cow on her own right. She did not retain the embryo and was bred to a white Shorthorn herd sire. I have had many visitors ask me to price her, but I have told them she is only a 3/4 blood heifer. She has continued to develop very well and is an extremely thick heifer with tremendous capacity. I am keeping her and going to try to develop a new line of Shorthorns.

Carm, if you decide you want to go this way, there are several things to keep in mind. Firstly, have a definite goal in mind. Secondly, I would suggest you consider the time it will take and think about the fact that a grading up program may limit the income produced from your herd for a period of time. The good thing is you can select a few good females to go this route with and continue to keep the rest of your herd purebred. 
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2009, 08:49:01 AM »
Hey JIT, you must have been reading my mind! To be honest, I don't have any asterisk free cattle, and my best calves this year and last year are my Appendix Shorthorn calves.  We have three this year that I think are outstanding, and they look just like Purebreds, but they're 3/4-7/8.  I'll be getting pics of them soon I hope. 
Shorthorn cattle and genetic opportunities available at all times. (515) 520 1972

 

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