ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders

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Carm

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Right or wrong, I really like the OCC and DUFF type angus lines.  My new goal is to have a herd of SHORTHORN cows that resembles the DUFF Donor line up on their website.  Which Shorthorn bloodlines would I have use to reach this, likely very long term, goal?  Thanks
 

andy

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Head to Alberta, Canada and talk to Robert and Ken Morison at Eionmor Shorthorns.  You will find what you are looking for in volume.  They have a pretty good website.  Google Eionmor Shorthorns and I think you will be able to find it.
 

Doc

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They are some tremendous cows at Duff's. Right off the bat, one cow that phenotypically reminds me of that is CF Roan Sue.
 

Carm

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andy said:
Head to Alberta, Canada and talk to Robert and Ken Morison at Eionmor Shorthorns.  You will find what you are looking for in volume.  They have a pretty good website.  Google Eionmor Shorthorns and I think you will be able to find it.
I can agree with that.  I bought 5 heifers this spring in their sale.  The heifer in my profile picture is one of them.  I also have an Eionmor Ultra 8C daughter that is almost exactly what I am wanting to breed.  Thanks.
 

Carm

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Doc said:
They are some tremendous cows at Duff's. Right off the bat, one cow that phenotypically reminds me of that is CF Roan Sue.
I can agree with that also.  As far as pictures go, Roan Sue is the perfect example of a Shorthorn version of Duff cattle.  That is one of my favourite pictures.  I almost bid on the Major Leroy embryos out of her Charmer daughter in the Frozen in Time Sale.  I was just a little worried that the Trump/Charmer cross might not be as easy fleshing as I would want.  Although Leroy would have added a lot of fleshing ability.  But yes, that picture of Roan Sue, if she were red, is exactly what I want to breed.  Thanks
 

DLD

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Ohlde's did breed up a set of Shorthorns that were phenotypically very similiar to their Angus.  Not sure if they have any of them left now - I know Dustin Glover bought a group of those cows when he bought into Jakes Proud Jazz, and I believe Griswolds may have gotten a few Shorthorn cows when they bought the big set of Ohlde Angus cows.  It might be worthwhile to check with those folks if that's what you're after...
 

justintime

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Here is one of our donors that I think meets the criteria you are looking for. She is New Beginning's Elsie's Jade. She is a Canadian bred cow and we have not been able to keep embryos from her as there is a waiting list for them. We now have two full sisters and two daughters that are also in our ET program so we should be able to meet the demand for embryos from this line now.
 

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mark tenenbaum

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      Ive traveled quite a bit, there are also some real sows at Eldon Millers. (QUESTING HILLS IOWA), and Farrer Stock Farms.Indiana, they are 2 of the few herds that have blacks running with them,that look alot like them. There arent alot of larger framed really atout cows that I have seen, the ones that look the part (to me) are more clubby.
 

TMJ Show Cattle

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The only shorthorn cows that ever resembled the OCC cows were some of the "OLDER" cows from Don and Pat Stout's herd down in Kremlin,Okla.The only problem with them is that they were taller ground sows.I really like that roan cow that is pictured on the previous post.
 

aj

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I always cringe when we as shorthorns try an compare shorthorn cattle to ohlde's say anchor bull. Most of are showring cattle always have bigger framed cattle in their pedigree. There are so many 1400-2,000 pound Shorthorn cows out there. I to would like to lean toward a moderate sow cow like ohldes in the Shorthorn breed. It's hard to find those genetics. I would think that bulls like gizmo,jakes proud jazz, leader 21, and bulls like that would be a step in the right direction. I think we need cattle that grow fast...get there in a hurry then stop growing. We need cattle that show masculinity at a earlier age. I just hate to see those 1600# Shorthorn cows out there. I wish we had a herd out there that didn't chase the frame size craze. I wish I hadn't of. A herd that that breed straight beef cattle through the 70's, 80's, and 90's would be a genetic goldmine in my opinion. I don't think there is one. This is why breeds need genetic diversity within breeds and not have everybody breeding "me too cattle". Wasn't Ohlde,"on a island" with his cattle for years. He didn't chase frame and performance epd's and bred cattle that looked like "Angus".
 

Davis Shorthorns

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DLD said:
Ohlde's did breed up a set of Shorthorns that were phenotypically very similiar to their Angus.  Not sure if they have any of them left now - I know Dustin Glover bought a group of those cows when he bought into Jakes Proud Jazz, and I believe Griswolds may have gotten a few Shorthorn cows when they bought the big set of Ohlde Angus cows.  It might be worthwhile to check with those folks if that's what you're after...

I visited Ohlde's about this time last year and they still have a good set of shorties. 
 

TMJ Show Cattle

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Tim Ohlde has ALWAYS been ahead of the eight ball. He is not only one of the best breeders today,he is one of the best of all time.Moderate frame cows that have good growth and MILK is the key.Several years ago he was the only one that could raise a show steer to 1260 lbs.have him finished and be 14 months old. The Duff cattle,that are extremely popular now are loaded with OCC genetics. Griswolds have tons of OCC genetics,Collins Cattle Co. has Ohlde genetics,along with Dean Kephart. Kephart also had Ohlde's Amerifax cows. Collins and Griswold also have the old Spur Emulous Master bloodlines that originated at the Corbin Ranch in Tishomingo, Okla. The Ohlde cattle were created with the same philosophy. They are absolutely the finest Angus genetics that there is for crossbreeding certain Simmy and Maine blood. Even the Gardiners who I firmly believe have ruined the Angus breed have incorporated Emblazon and others into their breeding program.Some folks can't even tell you what kind of "Angus" or "Maine" blood they have. They just say Oh!! she is a Maine /Angus cross or Sim/Angus cross.I'm here to tell you it makes a difference what Maine/Angus or Sim/Angus bloodlines you have. GENETICS is the name of the game.Unless you learn and understand how to crossbreed,and not only for certain characteristics you can't be to successful. If you get the right blood matched up, your successes will come sooner,with better results.
 

shortdawg

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I've been through those Ohlde cattle at Glovers several times and seen a lot of great calves at their side - brought a few home with me as well. You should visit his herd sometime - you will be impressed.
 

Carm

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justintime said:
Here is one of our donors that I think meets the criteria you are looking for. She is New Beginning's Elsie's Jade. She is a Canadian bred cow and we have not been able to keep embryos from her as there is a waiting list for them. We now have two full sisters and two daughters that are also in our ET program so we should be able to meet the demand for embryos from this line now.
This cow sure looks the part aswell.  And I think Captain Mark blood would help get me where I am going.  I might like your Sparkle donor better though.  How do they compare frame wise?  At the time of the Frozen in Time sale I decided that, in my little dream world, my herd sire in 5 years would be a Sonny out of the unborn Venture out of Sparkle.  My favourite cow I have right now is a Schrag cow that is a Sonny out of a Venture.  He seemed to have good luck with that cross.  And add Sparkle to that and we could have something pretty special.
 

Carm

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Davis Shorthorns said:
I agree go to canada. 

I agree with that, there are some great outcross old genetics in Canada.  I do like the cross between different types though.  There have been some great animals come from mating real beefy older Canadian genetics with more modern genetics from the U.S.  Like TM Gus, Studers Pretender, and KMS Canasta.  That is what I am trying to do with the Eionmor heifers I bought.  They are running with a bull from Schrag's that should add some muscle and hip to some nice easy keeping heifers.
 

justintime

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I hope I am not opening up another can of worms here, but I really struggle with some of the comments that a 1400 lb cow is too big. I have been trying to gather some donor cows that are moderate framed yet have lots of depth and thickness along with easy fleshing ability. Moderate framed cows that have all these traits do not weigh 1200 to 1400 lbs. The Elsie's Jade cow I posted above, is a very moderate framed cow... she probably frames below a 6 frame. Yet she would weigh 1800 lb on a poor day. I have posted the picture of Sparkle again( She has been shown on here before) and as a 4 year old, she weighed 1830 lbs the day we weaned her calf . She is also a very moderate framed cow.I call her a Kenworth on a Volkswagon frame.  These cows are not tall gutless wonders, but they are moderate framed tanks, and because they have so much mass and volume they pound down the scales. The ET center we send our cows to tell us that they are always having to put these cows on diets or they get too fat. They say they have many other cows of all breeds that do not  flesh as easily as these cows do.

My point is that you do not have to have cows that weigh 1200-1400 lbs to get easy fleshing ability. Fleshing ability has more to do with capacity, rib shape and their genetic ability to gain  than it does with how much they weigh. I also think that we have to remember that the value of our cull cows, is oftentimes an overlooked part of the income our cattle herds generate. It can be a significant monetary influence, when one considers that the average cull rate is often between 10 and 15% of a herd. We also should remember that a cow that weighs 1250 lbs as a 4 year old, will most likely be weighing closer to 1050 when her productive life is over at 9 or 10 years of age.

The average weight of finished steers delivered to Alberta packers in April/09 was 1408 lbs. That was the average which means there were some pretty big boys in the top end. I doubt very much if these kind of weights come from moms that weigh 1200 lbs. Here where I live, we get discounted huge dollars for small framed cattle. We also get discounted even bigger dollars for the bigger  framed cattle that lack thickness.

I have been in this cattle business my entire life, and I feel very fortunate that I have been able to survive doing the only real thing that I ever wanted to do. I have spent more years than I ever care to remember trying to get away from the cows that we used to have that were simply too small. I am afraid I am seeing many people today heading right back there again. There is such a thing as " optimum " cattle. They are not small and they are not real big. They work and they are efficient producers of beef.
 

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r.n.reed

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The magic cow weight is deternined by the point where input costs exceed production ability.This will vary in different locales but with the dramatic increase we have seen in feed costs it has definitly changed the point of optimum for a lot of operations.
 

aj

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I respectfully disagree with in the jit. People do have different enviroments and I do like cattle that are deeper with capacity. The taller framed guttless wonders don't cut it. The 2,000 pound cow works in Shorthorn purebred circles. You need them to win shows and the artificial enviroment of the almighty wda measurement. Apparently you need bwt's of 110# and 2,000 cows and massive creep feeding and dishonesty to win shows. That is all good and well. These big cattle are good cattle. However in Kansas I just don't see the big cows working in the commercial beef industry. To wean 60% of a 1400# cow you need to wean a 840# calf. To me that is insane. I may be corrected but I don't think the cow calf states in America can handle this big of a cow. I had a bunch of numbers looked up once of cow calf numbers and state rankings of the cow calf states. It used to be highest on down.....Texas,Missouri, Nebraska,Kansas, on and on. Kansas as a state doesn't have more cows than Canada but porportionally they do. Cherry county Nebraska has more cows than alot of other states do. I don't care how big people make their cows but I do care when someoneone with a 2,000# cow thinks they have something to offer the industry. Western Kansas and other areas have just gone through a roughly 10 years drought and here people have been forced to take a hard look at natural selection. I know that the most old school Shorthorn breeders will never change their thinking. Seems like to me the shows have become kind of a country club atmosphere,more about people than cattle, a source of intertainment. Part of this cause the black hided myth really hurt bull sales. The black hided myth is also a joke but I don't have time for that here. I guess I get agrevated trying to find smaller framed genetics for my low level registered herd. It gets really hard. Everbody just transplants cows and stacks Trump,Rodeo Drive, and whatever is winning. I still think the bulls like American Muscle, and Gizmo, and Jakes Pround jazz fits my enviroment the best.jmo I think most breeds have gotten their cows a little to big. Frame creep comes with maximizing growth. I think we need optimum growth not maximum epd numbers.I still have a few 1400# cows. I also have some Little Man females that it appears they are going to max out at 1200#. I may be sorry but they are going to get a shot at the deal.
 

justintime

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I will absolutely agree that we all need different cow size for the environments we have to work with. I reread what I wrote in my last post, and I want to clarify that I was not trying to imply that we need all our cows to be 1800 lb  or more. I was just saying that it is possible to find some cows that are very moderate frame wise, but still weigh a lot and flesh easily. I run my cows on a very commercial basis, and they do not see grain except in extreme situations. We do not grain farm so we buy any grain that is fed. Our cows have to make it on grass,  hay and fresh air, most of the time. I would think our environment here would not be that different that the Western Kansas region. No matter how much rain we have had we are never more than two weeks from a drought. It is really hard to state exactly what the best weight is, when there are so many other variables involved.  I used the two cows that I pictured above, because I think they prove a point, that being, that you can occasionally find moderate framed cows that are built to weigh a lot, yet they are very efficient and manage to stay in excellent shape, even in the harshest conditions. That is why we have been concentrating on flushing these cows and their daughters, as we feel there is a real need for many more cattle with their unique characteristics. The only problem I have is, that we don't seem to be able to keep as many embryos as I would like to implant myself, as there is a real demand for them.I guess I don't need to sell them all... but I seem to always need the money!!!
 
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