ATTN: Shorthorn Breeders

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JoeBnTN

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I think AJ and JiT are both right!  There is a tremendous amount of data on cow efficiency that shows, under the environmental and forage conditions of the high plains, that the 1250-1400 lb.,  5 frame cow that AJ describes will show the greatest return per animal unit.  BUT, that formula applies to the conditions of that region and are not universal.  As JiT describes his cattle - he's taking into account the environmental (and after this winter - he's had some environment!), management and nutritional conditions of his region.  The key difference is the type and size cow that will perform most efficiently in each location is somewhat different.  As AJ implied - it's the optimums that we should all strive for - but all optimums are not the same.

A few years ago when I was traveling a little more and helping with some herd selections, I was judging a major state fair and after I finished one of the breed shows a gentlemen asked me if I would give him some advice.  His parents had died and left him with about 100 acres of the best pasture land in the area and he wanted to keep cattle on the farm for his son to show.  His limitations were that he had only himself and a 9 year old son to do the work and he had a full time job "in town".  He asked what breed I recommended for him to use.  I told him the breed really didn't matter, but what he wanted was to find 25-30 really big cows to put on the pasture.  Why? Since his labor and time was very limited and his feed resource was abundant, he needed to find the "factory" that would fit that scenario best.  I hooked him up with a friend in the sales management business and he ended up with Simmys.  A few years later I ran into them at a show and he told me he had a herd of about 35 cows and he was weaning calves at 650-700 lbs. with no creep.  Everything worked great for him.

Not 10 miles from this farm was one of the original intensive grazing herds in the Southeast.  They ran nearly 100 Angus cows on less than 200 acres.  The cows were less than 1300 lbs. mature and weaned 500-550 lb. calves but their per acre production of beef was incredible.  So while their forage and nutrition was the same as the Simmy breeder, their ability to manage both cattle and forage was considerably greater.  At the end of the day, both had very acceptable returns in pound of beef per acre, but did it with very different types of cattle.

My point is that one size will never fit all - there are just too many other variables that impact production efficiency to make one cow work for everyone.  While I understand AJ's frustration with the "tall, gutless" 2000 lb. Shorthorn cows we've seen in the Shorthorn breed, they were there for a reason - economic pressure made these cattle valuable.  And while I tend to gravitate personally toward cows like JiT's - my old show ring habits and biases sometimes kick in and I wonder if his cattle are really "pretty" enough to compete in the show ring.  Like JiT I try to raise what I believe in and the young bull we've been promoting recently fits what works for me - moderate framed (6.2), low birth weight - 70 lbs., great weaning performance - 666 lbs., and a large spread between birth and weaning, and super athletic and sound.  Will he win a big show - not likely, he's too much of an optimum and not enough of a maximum.  Will he work for everyone - probably not, but when put on the right cows, I think he'll add value to the Shorthorn breed, but more importantly he'll add value to the beef business. 

We should all do our best to develop cattle that meet our own economic needs and that perform in the widest range of environments  But to expect one size or type to fit all is just not realistic - even if the poultry and swine industries are doing their best to prove that wrong!!
 

M Bar

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Take a trip to western Nebraska and look at the Haumont herd (sp).  We toured their place a few years ago, and it was a very impressive, extremely inbred herd that, in my opinion, would work as a nucleus herd to start with.  You might be able to buy some heifers from her.  Those cattle had adequate performance, low birthweights that were run in a commercial environment. 
 

JCC

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After reading all the posts above I believe that there have been many portions of Ohlde's cattle and program that have been missed. For starters I think most of the posters have focused primarily on the cattles phenotype. Ohlde cattle can be discribed as ground sows, belly draggers or many other terms very accurately but what I believe is more important in their program is bith weight, fertility, udder quality, adiquate growth, consistancy, and fleshing ability to name a few.
Tim Ohlde has built his program by being a ruthless culler of his cow herd selecting for not just one of these traits but rather all of these traits. If you use one or a dozen Ohlde bulls your offspring are still going to be extreamly consistant. Take a look at Duffs, Limestone, Rosanky Cattle Company, or Griswolds donor cows from Tim and you will find that they all have very nice udders and are extreamly uniform in appearance both in phenotype and size. One thing to remember as well is that those are not the cows that Tim thought to be the best of his herd.
I will concede JIT and AJ are probably both right different needs for different regions of the country however, one very important point in my mind is, if JIT's 1800# moderate framed, easy fleshing cow is slow to breed back or has an issue that would require assistance getting the calf on her big teets she would not stay in Tim's herd of cows no matter how great she was phenotypically. if AJ's 1250# moderate framed easy fleshing cow were to come in late bred or open she would as well would be faced to the same fate as JIT's cow.

I guess my point after much rambling is Tim has developed a great set of cows and bull battery over many years sticking to HIS breeding program and not following what was hot and the next best newest greatest. If you choose to breed your cattle in a red and white mold of Tims program keep in mind that the whole program and not just single traits have been what have made him successful.
 

aj

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I would agree with the natural selection deal. Cows can look rough when they wean off. However...if they breed back is it a problem. Or is longevity a problem with them. Maybe a big cow can wean off an 800# calf calf a rebreed and produce untill the age of 10. There is the level of supplemetation also. I think purebred cattle are supplemented harder than most grade cows. What is supplementation? Is it grain....is it protein tubs?.....is it three ton of alfalfa per cow?...Do you have grass in Feb or in may when the snow drifts melt off. Also the price of supplements vary but I think they will stay high. What about the effiency markers out there. Isn't this effeciency in a lot and not on green grass. I think some level of natural selection should be used to develop cattle. Selection pressure for convience traits and what not. Thats what scares me about a third generation embryo transplant line....no natural selection inbetween to weed out bad udders,bwts,fleshing ability,longeveity or what ever.
 

knabe

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aj said:
What about the effiency markers out there. Isn't this effeciency in a lot and not on green grass.

no way to measure intake in a pasture.  "best" methods involve measuring loss of grass without direct measurement of what goes down the throat of a cow.  even throwing pasture grass in a feed bunk isn't accurate as it doesn't take into account the cost of harvesting that grass (the cow harvesting it)

Research studies show that a cow will take about 36,000 bites and consume a maximum of about 28 pounds of dry matter per day given ideal conditions.

numbers don't indicate what moisture percent, breakdown of feedtype, footfalls per chew, calories spent on flies etc.

i would like to see fat measured at different points on the cow at intervals of at least a month on say 120 cows grouped into different types.
 

r.n.reed

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Knabe,Lets say you were able to test those cows in that particular environment for efficiency and then flushed them put the embryos in recips in a different environment raised the heifers to cows in that new environment and tested again for efficiency.Would the same lines excel?Assuming all cows are the same breed.
 

MYT Farms

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Well, JIT and other SH guys, I have a little question. My herd is focused on using Angus, Hereford, and Shorthorn genetics. The F1 crosses on Angus have been very profitable to us and are generally pretty marketable. But one problem I have with my SH influenced cattle is that they seem to shallow bodied and milk very heavily. Consequently, my one cow in particular can look pretty rough after a winter on the range. But she hasn't missed yet and brings in a big, beautiful calf every fall. Plus, her teats are small and correct. So when do you guys sell your cattle so that I can get an easy doing SH that still milks good?  :D
 

justintime

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You have identified a realistic problem many people who are using Shorthorn genetics face.I will be the first to say that there are some Shorthorn lines that produce too much milk to be very useful in many commercial operations especially in drier climates.There are also lines that do not produce as much milk ... but still are adequate to bring in a strong calf at weaning, yet don't look like an Indian dog themselves. Again, the infamous " optimum" is the key here. There is a fine line in many traits, including milk between too much ... and not enough. This line will probably shift according to environmental conditions.

I will write more about my thoughts on this topic later, but right now, I am implanting embryos.
 

knabe

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r.n.reed said:
Knabe,Lets say you were able to test those cows in that particular environment for efficiency and then flushed them put the embryos in recips in a different environment raised the heifers to cows in that new environment and tested again for efficiency.Would the same lines excel?Assuming all cows are the same breed.

it would be the offspring from the cows in the new environment that i would be interested in to see how they produce and then only to sell into similar environment, something most on here aren't interested in.

for more on this perspective, look up..


epigentics
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060807154715.htm
http://www.geneimprint.com/site/meetings/2005-durham
http://science.howstuffworks.com/genetic-science/epigenetics.htm/printable
http://www.sciencentral.com/video/2008/10/21/inherited-obesity-is-amplified-across-generations/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html   this one is reaalllllly good and probably a repeat of some of the above.
 

aj

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The one good thing about natural selection is it will eventually select for alot of economical traits.The birthing process will eliminate big bwt bulls and also cows with smaller pelvics. If a calf is born to a cow with a bad udder in a spring storm these genetics will not survive. If a cow milks to hard for her enviroment she will not breed back. If she is hard keeping she will have shorter stayability if not rebreeding problems. If a bull is not fertile or have high libido the other bull(if multiple bulls are used) will not propagate his genetics. I do know if you sell a big bwt,hard keeping bull to a experienced cow calf guy it will not take him long to figure it out. Alot of people blast Kit Pharos idealology but by god he is closer to what commercial cow-calf people need than 90% of the purebred show guys.If you take away the glamour photos and gut spreading beat pulp and creep feeding and false birth dates and all the wda and all the other artificial enviroment factor deals you can't fake it out in the country. The show ring is great for strucural correctness issues and alot of other phenotype stuff but dang it flat gets out of controll and I think we tend to forget what we are suppossed to be about.
 

Doc

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aj said:
The show ring is great for strucural correctness issues and alot of other phenotype stuff but dang it flat gets out of controll and I think we tend to forget what we are suppossed to be about.

You make it sound like aiming for the showring is as bad as being an Obama supporter  ;D. Some of us are not trying to sell commercial cattle, but instead are just trying to sell a few show calves. I, myself am content with selling a few show calves, a freezer beef or 2 & a bred female. I will admit i,t is interesting at L'ville seeing some of those 850 lb April hfrs that you don't see next year as a yrling or they only weigh 1100 lbs 6 months later. But not all show cattle are like that . JMO
 

aj

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I understand....and good point. I don't think these discussions,debates,arguements, or cussings are made to be won or lost but friendly disscussions are important. I think the youth need to hear different sides of issues and formulate their arguements in their heads to assimilate their beliefs. I know when traveling between judging contests in my day our coach would randomly assign two people a different breed and we would then verbally defend,promote, stress the breeds usefullness and whatever. We had some near wrestling matches defending a breed we would never be involved with. It helps with salesmanship when you think in terms of debate. It is good to understand debating techniques. I get stall blind and I get new info on here. The youth need to hear new ideas. Us burnt out bastards are hopeless.jmo
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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I am not a shorthorn breeder but I think this applies to all breeds and/or commercial opperations. The ideal cow is the one that makes you the most money. Pharo was mentioned in a previous post and while he is a tremendous promoter of his "type" of cattle and they may work in his opperation, if I tried to make my living off of that type of cattle I would soon be looking for a new way to make a living. He is the only man I have ever heard of that strives for 20% open cows after a breeding season. His theory as I read it was that if you didn't have 20% opens you weren't maximizing your forage. In my little part of the world we refer to that as over grazing and I have yet to ever make money on an open cow let alone 20% opens. But there are those that consider him to be a bovine guru and that's fine. I like my bigger cows that make all of the payments around here and have long since shipped the smaller cows that generally produced average sale barn calves. My point here being that what works for you in your enviroment is the ideal cow, if you do this for a living and not a hobby you will figure out what makes money and what just eats grass. RW
 

susie Q

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Mar 3, 2008
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aj said:
The one good thing about natural selection is it will eventually select for alot of economical traits.The birthing process will eliminate big bwt bulls and also cows with smaller pelvics. If a calf is born to a cow with a bad udder in a spring storm these genetics will not survive. If a cow milks to hard for her enviroment she will not breed back. If she is hard keeping she will have shorter stayability if not rebreeding problems. If a bull is not fertile or have high libido the other bull(if multiple bulls are used) will not propagate his genetics. I do know if you sell a big bwt,hard keeping bull to a experienced cow calf guy it will not take him long to figure it out. Alot of people blast Kit Pharos idealology but by god he is closer to what commercial cow-calf people need than 90% of the purebred show guys.If you take away the glamour photos and gut spreading beat pulp and creep feeding and false birth dates and all the wda and all the other artificial enviroment factor deals you can't fake it out in the country. The show ring is great for strucural correctness issues and alot of other phenotype stuff but dang it flat gets out of controll and I think we tend to forget what we are suppossed to be about.

I havnt been on here in awhile and frankly it seems like this where we left off. I would go broke if I created a Shorthorn program solely on marketing a SH to another  SH breeder? What's the fun in that ? Distribution of product and growth of breed! Carm thanks for the post and request for a beef type shorty - those breeders are out there and some never left.
 

Carm

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Thanks to all who responded.  Especially the suggestions in the earlier replies.  I have gotten some good ideas and suggestions and a few helpful personal messages. 

I don't want to sound like a sell out, but would it work to just use another breed once on some cows.  Like  Copyright or something that would make a big first step and then breed up from there with Shorthorns.  I have the patience. 

 

aj

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The nca data I saw ranked Iowa as the 10 state as far far as cow calf population. So as Iowa goes so does the U.S.A. I guess.Its hard to argue with sucess. Does anyone know how many cows are in cherry county? It is a big county I know but that is cool country.
 

aj

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Carm......Don Cagwin may have some good advice on developing a successfull shorthorn program. I have been told that the average life span of the average purebred herd is 6 years. So best of luck.
 
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