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Offline librarian

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Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« on: August 09, 2018, 07:28:32 PM »
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 11:55:48 PM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 05:41:57 PM »
 Jaimie in partnership with Hatfield Shorthorns recently imported HS Rosabell 596th and HS Rosabell 599th (also HS Lilac Lady H. 309th). Their ancestry has been in Nebraska for almost 100 years. From the Haumont herd they are members of the Rosabell cow family that traces back to the imported Rose of Sharon sired by Belvedere from the Thomas Bates herd in 1834. Rose of Sharon's great granddam,The American Cow, had been imported to New York in 1804 and then shipped back to England a few years later.
The Haumont Rosabell's are linebred to Rose of Sharon due to the multiple number of sires from this cow family used in the Haumont herd.
HS Rosabell 599 is pictured early this spring.

Offline shorthorngeek

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 07:27:24 PM »
Jaimie in partnership with Hatfield Shorthorns recently imported HS Rosabell 596th and HS Rosabell 599th (also HS Lilac Lady H. 309th). Their ancestry has been in Nebraska for almost 100 years. From the Haumont herd they are members of the Rosabell cow family that traces back to the imported Rose of Sharon sired by Belvedere from the Thomas Bates herd in 1834. Rose of Sharon's great granddam,The American Cow, had been imported to New York in 1804 and then shipped back to England a few years later.
The Haumont Rosabell's are linebred to Rose of Sharon due to the multiple number of sires from this cow family used in the Haumont herd.
HS Rosabell 599 is pictured early this spring.

Are there any other heritage (native) Shorthorn females in Canada?

Let us hope that these three animals are AI'd to some of the classic native bulls whose semen is apparently available in Canada and not the U.S., in order to preserve those genetics for the native branch of the breed.  Ready Go and the Bonnyview Hero bull come to mind, among others.

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 08:29:13 PM »
Jaimie in partnership with Hatfield Shorthorns recently imported HS Rosabell 596th and HS Rosabell 599th (also HS Lilac Lady H. 309th). Their ancestry has been in Nebraska for almost 100 years. From the Haumont herd they are members of the Rosabell cow family that traces back to the imported Rose of Sharon sired by Belvedere from the Thomas Bates herd in 1834. Rose of Sharon's great granddam,The American Cow, had been imported to New York in 1804 and then shipped back to England a few years later.
The Haumont Rosabell's are linebred to Rose of Sharon due to the multiple number of sires from this cow family used in the Haumont herd.
HS Rosabell 599 is pictured early this spring.

Are there any other heritage (native) Shorthorn females in Canada?

Let us hope that these three animals are AI'd to some of the classic native bulls whose semen is apparently available in Canada and not the U.S., in order to preserve those genetics for the native branch of the breed.  Ready Go and the Bonnyview Hero bull come to mind, among others.
I am not sure if there are any other native Shorthorn females up here, possibly some more Haumont females. These heifers were not AI'ed this year but the plan is to flush them to some native bulls next year.

Offline oakview

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2018, 09:13:13 PM »
I would think there would have to be some Canadian cattle of dual purpose descent that would be "native" in Canada.  There are several dual purpose herds in the states that I think would be "native." 

I have always been interested in why people want to preserve these genetics, other than for just the sake of preserving the genetics.  That is a good reason, but are there others?  My experience has been that a blend of the old with the new is pretty good.  On the other hand, if the old genetics, or the new for that matter, aren't what you want, the resulting mix won't be good, either.  Perhaps the best breeding bull I've bred and used combines the breeding of Leader 9th, Deerpark Leader 18th, and Cates' Nobody's Fool cow.  He's extremely pleasing to the eye and I use him with utmost confidence on heifers.  I have always found it kind of fun to try to combine the genetics available and come up with a success once in a while. 

Dad always raved about Golden Bantam sweet corn,  It is not readily available through the seed dealers, but I found some on e-bay, believe it or not.  It was just as Dad said it was 50 years ago.  Very large kernels, 8 rows per ear, very chewy and flavorful.  It was a single cross, so any seeds planted would reproduce themselves.  I know there is a group out there that attempts to preserve various crops and breeds of livestock.  For many, many years we planted DeKalb XL-45 and Pioneer 3780 corn.  They were the best we could get back then, but would not compare with the varieties of today.

Offline shorthorngeek

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2018, 12:33:41 PM »
I would think there would have to be some Canadian cattle of dual purpose descent that would be "native" in Canada.  There are several dual purpose herds in the states that I think would be "native." 

I have always been interested in why people want to preserve these genetics, other than for just the sake of preserving the genetics.  That is a good reason, but are there others?  My experience has been that a blend of the old with the new is pretty good.  On the other hand, if the old genetics, or the new for that matter, aren't what you want, the resulting mix won't be good, either.  Perhaps the best breeding bull I've bred and used combines the breeding of Leader 9th, Deerpark Leader 18th, and Cates' Nobody's Fool cow.  He's extremely pleasing to the eye and I use him with utmost confidence on heifers.  I have always found it kind of fun to try to combine the genetics available and come up with a success once in a while.

That is precisely the reason to preserve the old genetics; had semen from Leader 9th not been available, you would not have been able to produce that "best breeding bull."

Of course the old genetics will not work in every situation, but that is certainly not a valid argument against preserving, and experimenting with, heritage bloodlines.

Offline justintime

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2018, 02:26:37 PM »
I would think there would have to be some Canadian cattle of dual purpose descent that would be "native" in Canada.  There are several dual purpose herds in the states that I think would be "native." 

I have always been interested in why people want to preserve these genetics, other than for just the sake of preserving the genetics.  That is a good reason, but are there others?  My experience has been that a blend of the old with the new is pretty good.  On the other hand, if the old genetics, or the new for that matter, aren't what you want, the resulting mix won't be good, either.  Perhaps the best breeding bull I've bred and used combines the breeding of Leader 9th, Deerpark Leader 18th, and Cates' Nobody's Fool cow.  He's extremely pleasing to the eye and I use him with utmost confidence on heifers.  I have always found it kind of fun to try to combine the genetics available and come up with a success once in a while.

That is precisely the reason to preserve the old genetics; had semen from Leader 9th not been available, you would not have been able to produce that "best breeding bull."

Of course the old genetics will not work in every situation, but that is certainly not a valid argument against preserving, and experimenting with, heritage bloodlines.


I appreciate breeders who try to preserve genetics from the past. The only issue I see with some of them is that they " assume" everything from the past needs to be preserved. I think we need to remember that some of these genetics were bad when they walked on earth and are bad now. There are some other genetics from the past that truly need to be preserved and blended into today's and future generations.
I remember doing carcass data on many old lines back in the 70s and getting results from 1200 lb steers that showed they had 7.5- 8 square inch ribeye areas and excessive fat coverage. IMO, it is no wonder that the beef industry punted the Shorthorn breed to the background in the late 60s and early 70s. I have to say that the Shorthorn breed has done a pretty good job of breeding carcass improvement into their cattle without losing some of their historic good qualities. As Shorthorn breeders, we all need to embrace these good improvements and stop finding fault in everything.
I went on an Angus tour a couple days ago, and I was very pleased to have a well known Angus breeder walk up to me and tell me that he had just returned from a few weeks in Scotland and England and that the Shorthorn breed is far ahead of the Angus breed in these countries. He said the best cattle he saw on this trip were Shorthorns. He kinda perked this old guy up !
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Offline Duncraggan

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2018, 07:02:45 PM »
I respect the people who stay traditional, sometimes one needs to take a step back. Take a look at the massive frame, slab-sided Shorthorns of the past. Thank heavens that some breeders kept on the path!

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2018, 02:58:42 AM »
The original purpose of the ASA was to preserve the ties to the old bloodlines.These ties were just about nil prior to the reintroduction of these old bulls.Because of that original purpose many inferior cattle have been bred over the years for the sake of purity or perpetuation of a fad.I agree with Oakview on the blending of lines to develop a breeding animal and many pivotal sires in the breeds history back this up. I also believe a true breeder develops his own line and distinctive type from these components.
 Everything requires context.If I had 1600 to 1800 lb cows and wanted to keep them that way I probably wouldnt be to excited if Kit Pharo told me the Shorthorns were really good in Scotland.
 I have  attached a picture of the final resting place of Abram Renick who bred and developed the Rose of Sharon line.Not too far away is the gravesite of Benjamin VanMeter who traded a pretty good sized Bluegrass farm for 2 or 3 of the Rose of Sharon heifers.I hope that Jamie didn't have to give that much for hers.
 
Gary Kaper

Offline librarian

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2018, 03:59:38 PM »
"I went on an Angus tour a couple days ago, and I was very pleased to have a well known Angus breeder walk up to me and tell me that he had just returned from a few weeks in Scotland and England and that the Shorthorn breed is far ahead of the Angus breed in these countries. He said the best cattle he saw on this trip were Shorthorns. He kinda perked this old guy up !"- JIT ...I was on the back roads last week and saw a small Shorthorn herd in the pasture across the road from SpringLake Angus in Nebraska. They are a high dollar outfit that does lot of breeding/ marketing with old Rito 707 and other late model Angus genetics. The Shorthorns...that must have belonged to them or their manager...were pretty nice- I wondered if they were Haumont in origin...kind of had that look and mostly of roan. Very light roan bull. Near Lynch, NE.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 04:11:42 PM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline librarian

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2018, 04:08:02 PM »
This is what got me looking for Rose of Sharons...r.n., know anything about the bull, Kalona?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 04:14:08 PM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline coyote

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2018, 05:01:49 PM »
I think incorporating some of the older genetics back into the Shorthorn gene pool has some positive merits, like to correct some of the modern Shorthorn less desirable traits, i.e. large birth weights and hard doing cattle. Sure the older genetics were not perfect nor are the newer genetics perfect but maybe by combining some of each a breeder can produce a desired beast.
 
Pictured is a daughter of Muridale Hero 31Z , who is sired by a bull from the 1960's Bonnyview Hero.
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2018, 06:02:53 PM »
I think incorporating some of the older genetics back into the Shorthorn gene pool has some positive merits, like to correct some of the modern Shorthorn less desirable traits, i.e. large birth weights and hard doing cattle. Sure the older genetics were not perfect nor are the newer genetics perfect but maybe by combining some of each a breeder can produce a desired beast.
 
Pictured is a daughter of Muridale Hero 31Z , who is sired by a bull from the 1960's Bonnyview Hero.
It is actually the blending of traits I find valuable with some of the older genetics. In my opinion no breeder does it better than Muridale! Look at the calving ease EPD's on Muiridale Hero 31Z! Top 1% of the breed for CED, BW, CEM, $CEZ plus top 5% for $BMI. Those are genomic enhanced EPD's as well. He was in the top 1% before his genomics and now they are confirming all the data submitted.
That's a tremendous looking cow!

Regarding the Haumont Rosabell's
The Rosabell's trace to a cow Frank Haumont bought named Betsy 184130
Out of Belle Hays born July 15, 1899 by Crown Prince
Out of Mollie O Vol 49 p811
By Waterloo Harding
Tracing to Rose of Sharon imported 1834, born 1832 also known as Red Rose 11th sired by Belvedere. Rose of Sharon is a direct descendant of The American Cow. She was Colling bred by Favourite out of Red Rose. The American Cow was exported to New York shortly after 1801 by Mr Hustler son and when he returned to England a few years later he brought this cow back as she was"too good to leave behind". Her daughter Red Rose 1st was sold to Bates. Her great grand daughter was Rose of Sharon exported to the US.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:45:18 PM by Okotoks »

Offline justintime

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2018, 10:50:22 PM »
I agree with blending some of the best genetics from the past with some of today's genetics, and I have done a considerable amount of this myself. I truly respect breeders who take the time to keep breeding the best bloodlines from past decades. The only issue I have is with the breeders who try to embrace anything from the past as being something that should be reused. As I said before, just because someone collected semen on a bull in the 60s or 70s does not make him a good bull. Some of these cattle were total failures then and are still the same today. Study your lessons when you are selecting older genetics.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2018, 11:35:36 PM »
I have a list of old stuff I try to casually watch for, be it semen, eggs, or cattle. I often find myself running into the same familiar names when bidding on some of it, which is a positive to me because they generally know how to use it while others obviously don't. Perhaps I don't either, but a lot of the good old stuff has been wasted on some very questionable cows in the last decade. I'd rather see some of these bulls who just happen to be "pure" sit around and collect dust in some tank waiting for the right cows rather than being used on some average cow because she happens to be "pure" and alive.

Here's an embryo purchase who's sire was a major player in Canada that is still used today. Okotoks might be able to pick out her sire. She easily has the largest top of anything in the spring crop and I think I can see the blend of the good "old" stuff mixed with the "new".

 

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