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Offline librarian

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2018, 11:54:40 PM »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 01:37:08 AM »
Sorry cant help you on the Kalona bull Librarian.To pick up where Okotoks left off on the Rose of Sharon cow,as Dan stated Bates sold her for export to America.The Ohio importing company headed by Felix Renick of Chillicothe Ohio.A sale was held on his farm of all the cattle imported with this animal and Abram Renick purchased her there.
There is a  monument still located near the site of this sale recognizing this as the first purebred livestock auction held in the United States.
Here is a picture of one of our blends at 4 mo.and linebred to boot.There is a dash of Rosabell in there.
Gary Kaper

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2018, 03:03:55 AM »
I have a list of old stuff I try to casually watch for, be it semen, eggs, or cattle. I often find myself running into the same familiar names when bidding on some of it, which is a positive to me because they generally know how to use it while others obviously don't. Perhaps I don't either, but a lot of the good old stuff has been wasted on some very questionable cows in the last decade. I'd rather see some of these bulls who just happen to be "pure" sit around and collect dust in some tank waiting for the right cows rather than being used on some average cow because she happens to be "pure" and alive.

Here's an embryo purchase who's sire was a major player in Canada that is still used today. Okotoks might be able to pick out her sire. She easily has the largest top of anything in the spring crop and I think I can see the blend of the good "old" stuff mixed with the "new".
Is that a Mandalong Super Flag? Whatever she is she is an awesome looking calf. We have a four year old Mandalong Super Flag ET cow that has been doing a good job here for us. Pictured here last winter and a few weeks ago with a bull calf by a son of Balmoral Oaks Eagle 9X.

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 03:07:12 AM »
Sorry cant help you on the Kalona bull Librarian.To pick up where Okotoks left off on the Rose of Sharon cow,as Dan stated Bates sold her for export to America.The Ohio importing company headed by Felix Renick of Chillicothe Ohio.A sale was held on his farm of all the cattle imported with this animal and Abram Renick purchased her there.
There is a  monument still located near the site of this sale recognizing this as the first purebred livestock auction held in the United States.
Here is a picture of one of our blends at 4 mo.and linebred to boot.There is a dash of Rosabell in there.
Is that heifer calf one of your linebred Kaper 4508's? Most of those are reds are they not?

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Baron Victor
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 03:30:09 AM »
Is that a Mandalong Super Flag? Whatever she is she is an awesome looking calf. We have a four year old Mandalong Super Flag ET cow that has been doing a good job here for us. Pictured here last winter and a few weeks ago with a bull calf by a son of Balmoral Oaks Eagle 9X.

She is a Super Flag daughter. You northerners continue to post some ridiculously deep cattle.

Offline librarian

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 08:48:14 PM »
It's iinteresting to learn that the Rosabell family derived from Rose of Sharon bred bulls. So, a pedigree like this would, in its winding way, go back to the Rose of Sharon cows?
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2018, 09:30:19 PM »
It's iinteresting to learn that the Rosabell family derived from Rose of Sharon bred bulls. So, a pedigree like this would, in its winding way, go back to the Rose of Sharon cows?
In the maternal line Roasabell 302 back through her maternal grandam Rosabell 170th would be a direct descendant of Rose of Sharon. Plus in just this 4 generation pedigree she has three other direct descendants of Rose of Sharon. Rosa's Command 91 with two crosses, Commander Plus 88 twice. If you go back further there are more crosses like Lilac Commander 89 goes back to Rosabell 100! Even the the Par Defender way back in the pedigree goes back through Sharon Magnet to Rosabell 8.

Offline librarian

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2018, 10:41:11 PM »
Thanks Okotoks-that's really neat.
The original post was an article about mating the imported bull Baron Victor- a red Cruickshank bull born in 1880- with Rose of Sharon cows with good results.
So, since we are on older Shorthorn genetics, etc, I'll say that one of those most regrettable vanishing characters in Shorthorns, to me- is the old purple roan color. I've been studying a lot about color genetics and understand now that the wild type recessive extention allele e+ when combined with roan gives purple roan...or can give if everything lines up that way. My interest in old style Shorthorn genetics kind of went off the deep end all the way to Galloway and I still believe restoration of the beef type imported to Canada from Scotland would involve a reintroduction of Galloway percentage. 1/8 would suffice. Anyway, in Galloway cattle- or a debatably pure strain of Riggit Galloway cattle accused of being tainted with Shorthorn- there are combinations of alleles of roan and color sided genes along with the extension genes ...and their wild types. Here is a photo of a Galloway bull with an unusual expression of all those combinations. He would have Color Sided, Roan and the black version of the extension gene, wild type- or not, because he is a shade of black instead of a shade of red. BUT, what I'm getting at- is imagine he had the wild type red allele instead of black? He'd be purple roan and look an awful lot like Clipper King of Bapton. Not many would fail to confuse him with one of those Bapton type Shorthorns imported to Australia, South America and Canada in the late 1800's. I'm saying all this because of what Medium Rare said about the ridiculously deep bodied Canadian cows. We see it all the time in good Galloway cows and it seems very heritable. I don't see a huge difference between attempting to breed back to these voluminous traits thru embryo transplants from antique Shorthorn genetics or through using a good contemporary Red Galloway bull from Alberta. Not expecting agreement...just a heads up to those who like that body type.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 10:51:13 PM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline librarian

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2018, 11:00:58 PM »
I always admired this Rosabell on the DMH page. Or, back when I admired big cows more than I do now. She also looks more like the really good old Milking Shorthorns than anything else. I think they were pretty big cows.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline beebe

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victorbryo from that mating
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2018, 01:11:31 AM »
I am glad you like her, I like her to.  That is why she is here.  I will get a calf out of her this fall from an Albaugh bull.  I have one more embryo from that mating.  She is running with Max now.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2018, 01:17:34 AM »
Yes that Haumont cow looks like the old 1900s milkers but more modern as such in her overall balance and certainely better structured-the 2000 -2800 YES 2800 pound cows Harold Hoskins and Deertrail had went from the Dual herds that never got mixed with much like the Marvel cows-they were massive but not as deep as this one-The hilltop cows- were much harder doing looking and dual looking and had Saleers in them . When they were mated to the Irish cattle and Maines-the growth and scale on some was just incredible-and it was hard to believe that it happened so fast, Arguably one of the biggest cows on the North American continent in the late 80s-early 90s was Deertrail Lasting Impression-she was almost as tall as Deertrail Awesome who was gigantic and over 3000 pounds in good rig - he was even bigger than bulls like Grubbs Mckensie-Lasting Impression weighed at LEAST 2700 pounds-She was sired by Overtime-a solid red VERY stout (for that time) full irish sib to BBS Primetime and out of a normal sized cow She was not big at birth-she just kept growing and growing..She was a freak of nature and there were quite a few around like that. Though none of her calves were big at all including a bull balf by Awesome-If you see photos from Ireland in the 1860 s  of 6 foot tall Shorthorns that would be part of it-In general there are some VERY freaky growth curves back in the bushes with certain Shorthorn Strains O0

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2018, 01:54:30 AM »
Yes Dan the heifer pictured above is a double bred Frontline and since her sire is Double Brute she has 3 shots of 26a close up in her pedigree. Most of my cattle are red but a few roans turn up and I am not ashamed of that, even thinking about keeping a roan bull calf  to use here.The pedigree Librarian posted above is  my Rosa's Command's 05 bull.He is the last herd bull I have purchased.  Mary Bell Cooksley gave me the pick of her bull calves back in 2005.He sired a few influential females here including the dam of Frontline.I have attached her picture standing next to a very good Canadian bull out at Paint Valley.
 The Librarian brought up the Lavender Roan color and I must confess I don't get out much but I have only seen that lavender color in the Haumont cattle.
Gary Kaper

Offline yuppiecowboy

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2018, 03:42:17 AM »
my dad (oldhorn) who passed last October had quite a few "purple roans" over the years and his cow herd was heavy with Hultine and Haumont breeding. I really hadnt thought of it until the Librarian brought it up but you just dont see that deep, purplish roan anymore do you....?

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2018, 06:52:09 PM »
Isn't that heifer posted above by Medium Rare a purple roan especially later when she's in winter coat?
I consider the Supreme Champion All Breeds bull and Grand Champion at Agribition, Hill Haven Fire Storm, a purple roan as well as Diamond Minnie Blossom 43B posted here.
Maybe I have a different definition of "purple" roan.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 07:57:35 PM by Okotoks »

Offline librarian

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Re: Rose of Sharon family and Baron Victor
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2018, 11:41:48 PM »
The color in those pictures is what I think of when I think of purple roan. I think maybe/probably the Maine infusion made that wild type red allele less common or overwhelmed it. That wild type coloration in red becomes darker during breeding season. I think this Lincoln red shows the deep Shorthorn color that when mixed with white makes the old fashioned roan.
Here it is on a Galloway, but you see the nose is not black. I have seen Shorthorn cows with very dark hair on their muzzles ear tips...that would be the sign of the wild type red. I've also seen this color on Luing bulls.
I am using the example of Mulberry coloration inheritance in Longhorn cattle for my wild red assumptions...not trying to say it's an absolute fact about wild type red...but did also read it in a genetics book in regard to Shorthorns
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 12:15:37 AM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

 

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