Best Charolais Purebred Bull to Add thickness, milk, and downsize?

donorheaven · Jan 8, 2011

Maybe this is for Freddy but wanted to see what others may have to say on this question. Wanting to find the best Charolais Bull to downsize, add thickness etc. Just the best one that semen can be got on. Price of semen is not much can be up to $300/unit as it will be done in IVF. It is for the cow you see in my Avatar which is the mother to White Boy etc. I know this board has a wealth of info in this category from its members.

Mark H · Jan 9, 2011

I would like to get more information.

What is the cows pedigree and frame size?
Do you want to improve hair?
What about maternal traits; are they important?

donorheaven · Jan 9, 2011

Mark H said:
I would like to get more information.

What is the cows pedigree and frame size?
Do you want to improve hair?
What about maternal traits; are they important?

she is out of Skymont Ease and a SIR EC STINGER 48 cow. Trying to build upon her phenotype but also add milk as she is poor in that area IMO. downsize is better but have considered wyoming wind even though he is large.

HF CHARS · Jan 9, 2011

If it was my cow I would start with Firewater. In my opinion there is not a bull on the market that can compare to his added power, and eye appeal, that still make nice cows. I have several firewater daughters in production. They are making super nice cows, and good donors. The maternal is there. With that you get the added bonus of showring eye appeal. If you are one of the many people out there who despise Firewater, then I would suggest Montezuma. I have the first calves out of him now. They seem to be good. But the maternal is unproven atr this point. But word on the street is that the freedoms make nice cows.

donorheaven · Jan 9, 2011

HF CHARS said:
If it was my cow I would start with Firewater. In my opinion there is not a bull on the market that can compare to his added power, and eye appeal, that still make nice cows. I have several firewater daughters in production. They are making super nice cows, and good donors. The maternal is there. With that you get the added bonus of showring eye appeal. If you are one of the many people out there who despise Firewater, then I would suggest Montezuma. I have the first calves out of him now. They seem to be good. But the maternal is unproven atr this point. But word on the street is that the freedoms make nice cows.

Firewater is on the shortlist. I really think he is a very special bull.

Mark H · Jan 9, 2011

You have a number of choices all of which are good. All depends on what traits are relatively important to you. The firewaters have good growth and REA for example. SVY Freedom on the other hand is known for his strong maternal traits, good hair, and uniformity across different cow types. Both can sire show winners. Montezuma is out of a very good cow by the way and if Freedom semen can't be bought may be worth a look
Other bulls worth looking at are:
Revelation (can sire small framed and thick cattle)
Hamms Mogo (small framed very old French pedigree)
SVY Kaboom( a smaller framed easy calving freedom son-unproven)
Since you are using IVF why only use one bull? Even if you have to collect her eggs more than once I would consider using more than one bull to get calves out of a number of sires. This lowers your risk and gives you more embryos out of bulls that are well promoted giving you a marketing edge. Also if the cow dies then you still have the embryos again lowering your risk.
I would loo at all the calves out of the mentioned bulls to see what you like that is most important since you are paying the bill!

the best · Jan 9, 2011

my first choice would be firewater. you could try fasttrack too he will throw a good haired one and makes great females.

Freddy · Jan 9, 2011

Well looks like with all the help that you have picking sires you should not have any problems... But looking at the sires I don't understand , did these guys read your post ........... Maybe i'm the one that can't read, but I thought you said you wanted a bull to downsize an add thickness . They might be one of those ,the Fastrack bull might , but not much help if your breeding clubby .....You proably should just breed to Firewater an take orders from these guys , no clubby guys will want them they will be to big....This might not be the place to get your advise , cause ask these guys that know if they raise any clubby type cattle ...... These guys are selling there calves at the sale barn for lbs. an that is fine but not sure that is what you want .....

HF CHARS · Jan 9, 2011

Freddy said:
Well looks like with all the help that you have picking sires you should not have any problems... But looking at the sires I don't understand , did these guys read your post ........... Maybe i'm the one that can't read, but I thought you said you wanted a bull to downsize an add thickness . They might be one of those ,the Fastrack bull might , but not much help if your breeding clubby .....You proably should just breed to Firewater an take orders from these guys , no clubby guys will want them they will be to big....This might not be the place to get your advise , cause ask these guys that know if they raise any clubby type cattle ...... These guys are selling there calves at the sale barn for lbs. an that is fine but not sure that is what you want .....

Not Sure what makes you think the firewaters are going to be to big for the clubby guys Freddy. I happen to own the bull,,and can tell you that He is making great clubby cows, as well as great purebred females that fit the industry very well. I have bred him to frame 8 cows and brought them the calves down to a 6.3 I have also bred him to 6 frame cows and maintained frame score. I have used several other bulls over the years and have yet to find a bull that is as consistant as Firewater. There are allot of good bulls outh there,,,but I cant find one with the consistancy I get with Firewater. But if he is throwing calves that are too big. Maybe I should be asking You what I should breed my cows Too!

HF CHARS · Jan 9, 2011

Mark H said:
You have a number of choices all of which are good. All depends on what traits are relatively important to you. The firewaters have good growth and REA for example. SVY Freedom on the other hand is known for his strong maternal traits, good hair, and uniformity across different cow types. Both can sire show winners. Montezuma is out of a very good cow by the way and if Freedom semen can't be bought may be worth a look
Other bulls worth looking at are:
Revelation (can sire small framed and thick cattle)
Hamms Mogo (small framed very old French pedigree)
SVY Kaboom( a smaller framed easy calving freedom son-unproven)
Since you are using IVF why only use one bull? Even if you have to collect her eggs more than once I would consider using more than one bull to get calves out of a number of sires. This lowers your risk and gives you more embryos out of bulls that are well promoted giving you a marketing edge. Also if the cow dies then you still have the embryos again lowering your risk.
I would loo at all the calves out of the mentioned bulls to see what you like that is most important since you are paying the bill!

I like all of your suggestions Mark. But correct me if I am wrong, but isn
t Kaboom a MXS Vermillion, out of a freedom cow. And I will say this about MOGO. He was an awesome Yearling, But look really Bad in KC as a 2 year old, I was gonna use him,,but as he matured I changed my mind

Mark H · Jan 9, 2011

Freddy,

None of the bulls I mentioned will add frame; they will either maintain or reduce frame. What is the frame score you want for a Charolais bull? The only other Charolais bull I know that was used to reduce frame thatever used was Moore's Legacy; basically Hank breeding in a smaller package. Check him out at: http://www.cardinalcharolais.com/herdsires/mlegacy.html.
Is Hamm's Mogo too much frame for you?

Mark H · Jan 9, 2011

HF,

My mistake Kaboom is a MXS Vermillion son out of a freedom cow. I still like him as Vermillion packs plenty of muscle mass on and has a great maternal background. Also fairly easy calving.
Sorry for the confusion...

HF CHARS · Jan 9, 2011

Mark H said:
HF,

My mistake Kaboom is a MXS Vermillion son out of a freedom cow. I still like him as Vermillion packs plenty of muscle mass on and has a great maternal background. Also fairly easy calving.
Sorry for the confusion...

I am a vermillion fan myself, as I have two sons of him that I use. Very good cattle, and calve easy, and are making very nice cows from what I saw at Serhienko's

Mark H · Jan 9, 2011

HF,

I forgot to tell you that Mogo isn't my favorite bull either-I don't like the maternal capabilities of 1960's Full French cattle. He is very small framed and may still be able to through better cattle if bred to the right female-not a bull for general use in a herd.

TWR · Jan 10, 2011

I would look into Chunkey Monkey. He will downsize, make em thick and the hair should be good. You would have to talk to one of his owners and see how the daughters are milking. The Fastrack bull was brought up in an earlier post and that is Chunkey Monkey's Maternal Grand Sire.

HF CHARS · Jan 10, 2011

TWR said:
I would look into Chunkey Monkey. He will downsize, make em thick and the hair should be good. You would have to talk to one of his owners and see how the daughters are milking. The Fastrack bull was brought up in an earlier post and that is Chunkey Monkey's Maternal Grand Sire.

I have never seen a purebred out of him, have seen several good steers though. The one thing I would worry about with Chunkey Monkey is, some of the steers I have seen can be pretty straight. But thick and full of hair

Freddy · Jan 10, 2011

I CAN see most of you people are interested in using these bulls that were bred to put on lbs. an work in the white cattle purebred shows ,not show in the clubby deal...If your going to try to slip these sires into the clubbby deal fine some very small moderate cows an try them on those.. Don't try to make them work on a cow that must be bigger than he wants now ....

But since I have the opptunity to talk about good growth cattle an Charolais show cattle I have a bull I would like to show you and some of his proof ....
Freds Progress 7308 is a son of LT RIO BRAVO an out of a Purebred Charolais cow 1412 (F905130) who is out of a IQCR ADVANTAGE 658 an a FREDDY 178
X SCR ROCKY 4117 cows ,who in their days were very good ....

knabe · Jan 10, 2011

how did the touring club calf ranches from Kansas Wyoming south Dakota Nebraska and Iowa go?

never saw a report.

HF CHARS · Jan 10, 2011

Freddy said:
I CAN see most of you people are interested in using these bulls that were bred to put on lbs. an work in the white cattle purebred shows ,not show in the clubby deal...If your going to try to slip these sires into the clubbby deal fine some very small moderate cows an try them on those.. Don't try to make them work on a cow that must be bigger than he wants now ....

But since I have the opptunity to talk about good growth cattle an Charolais show cattle I have a bull I would like to show you and some of his proof ....
Freds Progress 7308 is a son of LT RIO BRAVO an out of a Purebred Charolais cow 1412 (F905130) who is out of a IQCR ADVANTAGE 658 an a FREDDY 178
X SCR ROCKY 4117 cows ,who in their days were very good ....

I am really not sure what makes you think firewater, and some of the other bulls mentioned won't work in the clubby deal. I don't know that the conversation ever specified he wanted clubby either. He just wants to moderate his cow, and add some milk. He isn't gonna moderate much with the bull you have pictured. I saw him in Louisville,,beat him too as I showed the reserve bull that day. and reserve female, which was a firewater, and was often commented she wasn't big enough. But thats a story for another day. I think he is looking for suggestions. I guess I never planned on getting into a pissing match, but someone saying my bull won't work in the industry pisses me off. I have seen him work, and work well. The fact that a daughter sold for 50K to a clubby guy I think speaks well for the bull. I guess,this is what I am gonna end with. If you think you have a bull that can outbreed firewater. Proove it. Bring your cattle out and beat his offspring, If you do, I am Happy for you. We are all in the bussiness to try to produce better cattle. And I recall Marc Sneed commenting in another Post, that Firewater was one of the best bulls he had ever pictured.

donorheaven · Jan 10, 2011

HF CHARS said:
Freddy said:

I CAN see most of you people are interested in using these bulls that were bred to put on lbs. an work in the white cattle purebred shows ,not show in the clubby deal...If your going to try to slip these sires into the clubbby deal fine some very small moderate cows an try them on those.. Don't try to make them work on a cow that must be bigger than he wants now ....

But since I have the opptunity to talk about good growth cattle an Charolais show cattle I have a bull I would like to show you and some of his proof ....
Freds Progress 7308 is a son of LT RIO BRAVO an out of a Purebred Charolais cow 1412 (F905130) who is out of a IQCR ADVANTAGE 658 an a FREDDY 178
X SCR ROCKY 4117 cows ,who in their days were very good ....

Click to expand...

I am really not sure what makes you think firewater, and some of the other bulls mentioned won't work in the clubby deal. I don't know that the conversation ever specified he wanted clubby either. He just wants to moderate his cow, and add some milk. He isn't gonna moderate much with the bull you have pictured. I saw him in Louisville,,beat him too as I showed the reserve bull that day. and reserve female, which was a firewater, and was often commented she wasn't big enough. But thats a story for another day. I think he is looking for suggestions. I guess I never planned on getting into a pissing match, but someone saying my bull won't work in the industry pisses me off. I have seen him work, and work well. The fact that a daughter sold for 50K to a clubby guy I think speaks well for the bull. I guess,this is what I am gonna end with. If you think you have a bull that can outbreed firewater. Proove it. Bring your cattle out and beat his offspring, If you do, I am Happy for you. We are all in the bussiness to try to produce better cattle. And I recall Marc Sneed commenting in another Post, that Firewater was one of the best bulls he had ever pictured.

I now plan to use Firewater. I may use other bulls but he is a for sure. I appreciate all of the commentors help. I love the passion each of you have about your bulls. It shows you believe in them as you should.

Best Charolais Purebred Bull to Add thickness, milk, and downsize?

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