Better female maker ( Old Simmy Bulls )

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ALTSIMMY 79

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Who was the better female maker , Joker or the Fortune 500 bull ? I've had Jokers but never been around any out of the Forune 500 bull. Both 1996 born black pb bulls. Since its tough to find the right bull today that actually has a positive milk epd I may go back to one of these bulls on a few cows. Thanks in advance.
 

husker1

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I always like the Joker females...

Now if you want to go older school yet....loved the Pineview Jazz females!  They might not make them the right color for you though!

 

leanbeef

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Joker daughters are good. There were also a bunch of really good Fortune 500s out there. The one thing I don't like about Joker from a complete point of view is his carcass, particularly his marbling EPD, is terrible. He also has an API below 100, but the daughters will milk.

Fortune 500 has a lot better numbers. He's heterozygous black, so you can get some red calves out of him. Both of those bulls are homozygous polled and non spotters.

Another bull from around the same time period that will make excellent daughters is Nichols Legacy G151. Look at the bottom side of the pedigrees of the AI bulls you like...see how many of those are out of Legacy daughters.

All three of those bulls would be worth using if you had a bunch of cows and wanted to make some nice cows. Legacy would be my choice HANDS DOWN if I was gonna pick one of em and wanted a real complete package in terms of phenotype and EPDs. I would consider Joker if not for the Marbling EPD and the API...Fortune 500 if I didn't care about the red gene.

If I was going old old school (which I actually AM doing on some Angus cows), the bull I'd choose would be Bold Future. I got three black baldy half blood females and they're NOT FOR SALE!

 

ALTSIMMY 79

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Thanks for the replys , yes I liked the Jokers that I've had but was just curious if the 500 bull had some likers out there also. Legacy is a given , a ton of everything go back to him so I'm leaving him out of this question. Thanks again !
 

Simmgal

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If you are open to other options, Grandmaster, Shear Force and Right On are all good female makers that I have seen some good offspring out of. Their Milk is also very high. A Simmi breeder friend of mine uses Right On heavily and the females have been very good looking and maternal. She also has used Grandmaster with success. I like those three for maternal, if youre looking for bulls outside of Joker and 500. The same breeder I know has used lots of Joker and been sucessful.
 

ALTSIMMY 79

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Simmgal - good suggestions but I'm talkin just in between the two old bulls in general. I've got my heifers due to Grandmaster , used Shear Force before also. Just looking to put some old bloodlines back on some of the newer genetics.
 

Simmgal

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ALTSIMMY 79 said:
Simmgal - good suggestions but I'm talkin just in between the two old bulls in general. I've got my heifers due to Grandmaster , used Shear Force before also. Just looking to put some old bloodlines back on some of the newer genetics.
Wellllll then between the two, I really like Joker. He gives them some more showy type style and makes good females as well. I have seen more Joker than 500. Isn't Grandmaster out of Joker? That's the proof he makes some good ones! Haha! ;D
 

ALTSIMMY 79

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That's correct , Grandmaster is a Joker. Still curious about the old 500 bull , I think there is some good in him. Joker was definitely more popular but that doesn't always mean better....
 

leanbeef

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One of the more popular Fortune 500 sons was Momentum. I've seen some really nice daughters of Fortune 500 as well as Momentum. Going by the numbers, the Fortune 500s have quite a bit going for them, and structurally they were pretty good, too. If you don't care that he's heterozygous black, I think he's a smart bull to go back and use to make cows.

I liked Joker when I saw him show in Louisville. He got beat that year by a bull called Snafu who WAS A BIG SNAFU! I never liked him, and he won every show he went to that winter. It was always more than obvious that Joker would be the better breeding bull, and his daughters have proven that. I wish he had a higher API, and I'm sure it's because his marbling number is so low because marb plays into API fairly heavily. You can always go back on your Joker daughters with a better carcass bull. Or use him on Angus cows...

I'd use both of em if I had plenty of cows and wanted to make some good females.
 

ALTSIMMY 79

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Thanks leanbeef , red cattle don't scare me a bit considering all our Simmys used to be that color ! I might just have to try the old bull for myself.
 

dixieland cattle co

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If you want to use some older Simmy bulls, you might want to consider Black Mick or Black Irish Kansas.  Black Mick cows milk as well as any. You might also like MV Red Light he made some pretty good females over the years. And a couple old faithfull bulls Highwayman 33T & Polled Abundance.  I guess I am showing my age here.
 

ALTSIMMY 79

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We bred about 40 cows to Black Mick back in the day , I wasn't overly impressed with the calves but I know he has also made some good ones. Showed a Red Light grandaughter back in high school , like that bull also. Good info !
 

LN

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Here's a bull that hasn't been mentioned yet and is a great female maker...Nichols Blk Destiny D12.
 

kfacres

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you mention having legacy in the pedigree-- if your going through the trouble of using old stuff.. why not linebreed around it, and with it?  why not put those legacy g-g-g rand daughters, back to him? 

linebreeding never hurt anything...
 

kfacres

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my thoughts:

if you linebreed same ole same ole.. you'll always have options for outcross to use...

if you always breed with this, and that, and this one who's popular, and that ones popular son.. you'll always be searching for something outcross- and never be able to find it... 
 

vcsf

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I was always intrigued by the Fortune 500 bull but never actually used him.  The main reason I never used him is that he is heterozygous polled and I did not want to risk getting horns.  I know  leanbeef said  both Joker and Fortune 500 are homozygous polled but I was was sure Fortune 500 was heterozygous so I went back to look in an old Genex catalog and that is how they had him listed.  I never saw many Fortune 500 calves as he saw limited use in Canada and in fact has less than 30 daughters registered here.  I did have a friend who used him a little and was quite satisfied with the calves and the did look good.  I do think that overall Fortune 500 was probably used in programs with more of a commercial focus than where Joker was used heavily.  There are some very good cattle showing up with him on the bottom side of the pedigree.  I found it interesting that when Ankony was getting into Simmentals and spending a fair bit of money that Fortune 500 was the black bull that they sourced and went out and bought as a mature herdbull.  If you wanted to know more about the bull I would not hesitate to give Nelsons in Montana a call as they ran him for a number of years.

Joker has definitely sired some excellent daughters and I believe that has to be considered his strong suit.

I don't think anyone can argue the influence and impact of Legacy on the breed.  If he had only sired his three sons in Dream On, Shear Force, and Ellingson Legacy M229 'Olie' he would still be one of the most influential bulls today.  I have never seen that many direct Legacy progeny as he is another bull that only saw limited use in Canada but most of the ones I did see seem to be lacking in depth of body and bone.  To me they seemed to be too refined and hard doing and I wondered if other people saw this also or if it was just the few that I have seen.  Just wondering and not trying to cut the bull down at all.

I really liked the Nichols Blk Destiny D12 calves that I had and the ones I kept turned into excellent cows for me with lots of milk and good udders.  I felt that they had more rib and bone than the offspring of his son Legacy that I saw.  My only complaint about a few of the Destiny's was that they were a little bit heads up.  They were not wild and would not try to take you but some did not take well to tight spaces and just wanted to keep a bit of distance from people.  He is definitely a bull that I have considered going back and using again.

I also have used Bold Future on a couple of black cows fairly recently hoping to get some moderate blaze faced daughters.  He is a non diluter but once again heterozygous polled.
 

Pleasant Grove Farms

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Has anyone mentioned Powerdrive females?  Kind of out of the Joker era, Powerdrive females have been very successful;

I tell you guys, I am so excited; I had a Bold Future grandson born here in
December.....years ago my dad who was one of the first pioneers of the Simmental breed in the United States bought a Bold Future son (Sir Nick 5Y) out of the dispersal sale of Nickeson Simmentals in South Dakota.  That bull's daughters
were way before their time; heavy milking, very moderate framed; Nick 5Y was homo polled and very traditionally colored red and white...lots of white!  But we used that bull for a number of years and he could throw solids, he was a homo non dilutor and so I had just a couple straws of it left; used it on a solid black Powerline cow and got a bull calf last month; he is a solid black blaze face with a little white on his underline.  So far so good; he looks great but hoping he continues to develop he will be a herdbull.  His daughters will most for sure milk; he will sire some growth too.
 

leanbeef

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vcsf said:
I was always intrigued by the Fortune 500 bull but never actually used him.  The main reason I never used him is that he is heterozygous polled and I did not want to risk getting horns.  I know  leanbeef said  both Joker and Fortune 500 are homozygous polled but I was was sure Fortune 500 was heterozygous so I went back to look in an old Genex catalog and that is how they had him listed.  I never saw many Fortune 500 calves as he saw limited use in Canada and in fact has less than 30 daughters registered here.  I did have a friend who used him a little and was quite satisfied with the calves and the did look good.  I do think that overall Fortune 500 was probably used in programs with more of a commercial focus than where Joker was used heavily.  There are some very good cattle showing up with him on the bottom side of the pedigree.  I found it interesting that when Ankony was getting into Simmentals and spending a fair bit of money that Fortune 500 was the black bull that they sourced and went out and bought as a mature herdbull.  If you wanted to know more about the bull I would not hesitate to give Nelsons in Montana a call as they ran him for a number of years.

Joker has definitely sired some excellent daughters and I believe that has to be considered his strong suit.

I don't think anyone can argue the influence and impact of Legacy on the breed.  If he had only sired his three sons in Dream On, Shear Force, and Ellingson Legacy M229 'Olie' he would still be one of the most influential bulls today.  I have never seen that many direct Legacy progeny as he is another bull that only saw limited use in Canada but most of the ones I did see seem to be lacking in depth of body and bone.  To me they seemed to be too refined and hard doing and I wondered if other people saw this also or if it was just the few that I have seen.  Just wondering and not trying to cut the bull down at all.

I really liked the Nichols Blk Destiny D12 calves that I had and the ones I kept turned into excellent cows for me with lots of milk and good udders.  I felt that they had more rib and bone than the offspring of his son Legacy that I saw.  My only complaint about a few of the Destiny's was that they were a little bit heads up.  They were not wild and would not try to take you but some did not take well to tight spaces and just wanted to keep a bit of distance from people.  He is definitely a bull that I have considered going back and using again.

I also have used Bold Future on a couple of black cows fairly recently hoping to get some moderate blaze faced daughters.  He is a non diluter but once again heterozygous polled.
 
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