Biblical timeline

aj said:

Does anyone have a theory about how we may be interpeting the timeline of mans existence.The only thing I am questioning is man only being here 6,000 years. Science says at least 13,500. The soil layers supposedly also date mans artifacts on top of radio carbon dating. Is it a tiny bit possible that the 6,000 year deal is wrong? |I'm not saying that mans interpetation could be wrong. Men do science and men wrote the bible. I'm just torn between the timeline. The people that wrote the bible thought the earth was flat for instance. Would that make a difference in their interpetation of the world. In a book I read called "Bones" here lately the lady wrote about a European archeologist who went to South America. He was very religious. It ended up almost ruining his life cause he kept finding things that went against his beliefs. It tore him in half emotionally. The timeline of man is my only question. It is something that archeologists have to deal with. I know in are little Kansas group there are two ministers that are members.jmo

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aj, the people that wrote the Bible (God inspired them to write it) absolutely DID NOT believe that the earth was flat! 

Isaiah 40:22... "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth..."   In the orginal Hebrew, the word that was translated "circle", means "a circle or a sphere".

Job 26:7... "And hangs the earth on nothing."   

Again, man can be wrong... and man's interpretation of the Bible can be wrong... but the Bible is never wrong.  The Bible was 100% correct about the shape of the earth & the fact that it was "help up" by nothing.  Why?  Because the Bible was "God breathed".  We can be wrong, but God is never wrong.      


RE a timeline... I believe that the Bible teaches that the earth is somewhere right around 6,000 years old.  The Jewish calendar is in the upper 5,000's, but it's not quite up to 6,000 yet.  Their Jewish year is not the exact same length as our modern calendar year.  However, if you are one of the people who believe that there is a gap between Genesis 1 & most of Genesis 2, then the earth could be any age, because if there was a gap, no telling how long that gap lasted or even what happened during that gap. 

Hope that helps!             

farwest said:

Well i wanted to leave this one alone, but i just couldn't, not when tj posts 4 times in a row, i gotta have a turn.  This is a little off the path, and i'm taking cover as i write it, but here goes.  This has been repeated to me several times from people i know and respect their lifestyles as well as myself.   IS THIS NOT TRUE.  A lot, not all, of the people who sit in the front row at church on Sunday are the ones that'll screw ya the other 6 days the worst, the same that boast of their knowledge of the bible and godly things.  Don't get me wrong, i go to church, have served on church boards.  But, my opinion is this, on judgment day the good lord is gonna have a place for that person who never sat in church a day in his life, was kind to all living things, and never screwed his neighbor.  And a few of the front row bible beaters are gonna have a surprise.   Just my honest opinion.........

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Are there hypocrites (means an "actor") in churches?  Absolutely!  Does the devil sometimes get one of his own or several of his own to join a church?  Absolutely!  Does the devil have some of his own preachers/priest standing behind pulpits in churches around the world?  Absolutely!  Will some preachers/priests spend eternity in hell?  Absolutely!  Will some people that donated money to churches every week spend eternity in hell?  Absolutely!  Deacons, music leaders, volunteers, etc... can all be lost.  You can even attend a Bible believing, New Testament Church every single day of your entire life & still burn in hell.  So, yes, some "Bible beaters" will be spending eternity being tormented day & night forever & ever & ever!  I believe that with all my heart. 

Jesus even said in Matthew 7:22-23... "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."     

Prophesied more or less means preaching.  Casting out devils more or less means being a "soul winner".  Wonderful works means just that & and can include any good deeds.  Yet, doing those things isn't enough!!  Jesus says that Himself!  Why?  Because He never knew them.  They were never truly converted (born again), so they never truly belonged to Jesus.  It doesn't say I don't know you now, it says, "I never knew you:".  Implying that they never got saved, despite their religious activity.  Religion & good deeds don't save a person, only Jesus saves.     

With all that in mind... "not screwing your neighbor" & "being kind to all living things" are both very admirable things, but doing those things is not going to get you into heaven.  Not even close!     

The truth is "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)  "The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

What that means is that NONE of us are good enough, no matter how good we are or how good we try to be.  Unfortunately, some very, very good people, by our standards, will be in hell.  God can not tolerate sin, not even 1 sin.  So just 1 sin, no matter how small or insignificant a person might think it is, is enough to send that person to the "lake of fire" for eternity.   


Romans 5:8 says... "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." 

Even though none of us are good enough & we all deserve eternal punishment, Jesus loved us all enough to die for us so that we could be saved.  We can't save ourselves (good works), because we are not good enough.  God demands perfection & we are not perfect.  But, Christ was sinless & perfect.  When He shed His sinless blood & died a death that He didn't have to die on the cross, He took our place & paid our sin debt in full, if we will place our total faith & trust in him.    (see below...) 


Romans 10:9-10... "If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved."   

"Believes with his heart"... that is where so many mess up... "the Lost" may believe the facts about Jesus, about the Bible & even about the plan of salvation, but they only believe in their heads.  However, the Lost never truly allow Jesus Christ to come into their hearts to transform them!  In other words, they never make Jesus Christ their Lord!  It is ONLY with a change of heart (repentance & surrender) & a heart transformation (inviting Jesus to come into your heart) that a person is truly justified.  A person who is truly willing to do those things will call upon the Name of the Lord to save them & at that moment they will be saved & the Holy Spirit will enter their hearts & begin to transform them.  No transformation = No salvation.   Just as Christ was raised from the dead, a person who is "born again", has been "spiritually" raised to walk a new life in Christ Jesus. 

The Bible says in James 2:19... "You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear." 

So, it's clearly not a head belief that saves.  It is a heart belief.  Even the demons believe the true facts.  But, the demons will not surrender to Jesus as Lord & give Him their heart!  Giving Jesus your heart is what saves a person, not believing about Jesus in your head.  It's not enough to know the plan of salvation... you have to personally know the Man of salvation & His name is Jesus!     

Does all that mean that Christian's are perfect?  No, it doesn't, because we are not.  Why?  Because we are still imperfect humans.  But, after we got  saved, God will not let us enjoy sinning & He will punish us after we sin unless we are truly sorry & ask for forgiveness.  If a person thinks that they are saved & they can sin willfully & if they can sin repeatedly & if they don't feel bad about it and/or nothing bad happens to them after they sin, they had better re-examine what they call salvation!  God will not let one of His own act out of line for very long & if they don't repent, He will step in and punish that person.             

The following verse often makes me tear up & it gives me "God bumps" just about every time that I read it... ""I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."   Why do I get so emotional?  Because that is exactly the way I feel.   I still fail, but Jesus always gets me back in line sooner or later... He always does.  I can't enjoy many of the things that I used to find pleasure in, because I now know that they are wrong & it literally eats at my soul to do them.  I literally have no desire to do a lot of things that I used to do. 

I'm not going to heaven because I'm good (by God's standards, I'm not good enough... not even close!).  But, praise God, I'm not going to hell even though I've sinned & the reason why is because I've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb!  When God looks at me, He will no longer see an imperfect person (which I am), but He will instead see the righteousness of His Son who died for me.  And praise God for that because otherwise I'd be burnt to a crisp & then some!! 

But, let's forget about heaven & hell... I'd still wouldn't give up being a Christian even if there was no heaven or hell.   I can't imagine living without Jesus & I'm glad that I don't have to!  God is so good & He brings a person peace, joy & contentment that is beyond comprehension.             

Tj read my post one more time.  And when your done, read it again , and again.

farwest said:

Tj read my post one more time.  And when your done, read it again , and again.

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Not sure what you are wanting me to re-read.  While I totally agreed with one part, I disagreed with the other part, mainly because it didn't include Christ in the equation.  In my last post, I went into detail explaining why I agreed & disagreed with each part.   I realize that is was extremely long, so here is a brief summary... 
       
I wholeheartedly agree that some of the "church crowd" is not going to heaven, even preachers.  Some who sit in the front row might indeed "screw ya the worst" not only the other 6, but all 7 days a week!  Judas is a good example. 

However, I have a problem with this part because it doesn't include Christ... "But, my opinion is this, on judgment day the good lord is gonna have a place for that person who never sat in church a day in his life, was kind to all living things, and never screwed his neighbor."  The thief on the cross never sat in church & he's in heaven, so I'll grant that it is possible.  However, a true Christian will have a desire to fellowship with other Christians.  And if they don't, something is wrong!  Also, being good will not get you into heaven, only Christ is good enough & we can only get into heaven due to His sacrificial, atoning death & His glorious resurrection. 

Maybe I'm missing something in your post, but I was only pointing out what I agreed with, what I disagreed with & why.  Nothing more.  If I'm missing something, you'll have to explain it to me.  The Lord may be perfect, but I'm not & I'm not sure what you are getting at here, other than you previously pointed out that  I posted 4 times in a row.

Damn it TJ. You're going to make me go to church aren't you. I've been threatening to.Thanks. ;D

TJ, I had a dream last night or maybe it was a nightmare.  They were loading two of each species on the ship, I had just arrived up the ramp with Whitney and looked to the cattle pen and Doc Holiday was already there.  Thought I'd have a little fun today.  Farwest for your sake we sat in the 5th row today at church!

Tony

That doesn't improve my opinion of yi still tony.  Oh and by the way. You flush a ten thousand dollar cow to a low line and then wonder why shell never produce eggs again?  Her uterus is still in shock. LOL

farwest said:

That doesn't improve my opinion of yi still tony.  Oh and by the way. You flush a ten thousand dollar cow to a low line and then wonder why shell never produce eggs again?  Her uterus is still in shock. LOL

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LOL, POT STIRIR!  She gave me some Climax eggs after that. Stir, Stir, stir!

Tony

Yeah.  Whole lot of em.  LOL

RSC said:

TJ, I had a dream last night or maybe it was a nightmare.  They were loading two of each species on the ship, I had just arrived up the ramp with Whitney and looked to the cattle pen and Doc Holiday was already there.  Thought I'd have a little fun today.  Farwest for your sake we sat in the 5th row today at church!

Tony

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Tony, sounds to me like a mating that was meant to be.      ;D     

For anyone interested, I sat in the 3rd row today, but I got up a time or 2. 

aj said:

Damn it TJ. You're going to make me go to church aren't you. I've been threatening to.Thanks. ;D

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  ;D

Were you able to sit up straight. Just kidding. LOL

aj said:

I'm not one to stir up peoples feathers but let me throw this out there. How long has man been on the earth? I am an amateur anthropologist. The scientists think they have radio carbon dated man made items to 13,500 bp and possibly16,ooo with meadowcroft in pennslyvania. I know you are never to talk politics or religion with family. I am probably catagorized as a pro choice,pro birth controll,supply side(Ronald Reagen), anti socialist, anti obama,possibly legalize marajuana(though I haven't tried it),gun liking red neck from Kansas. I am almost anti church(as I am not a gay basher)kkk guy. However I believe in a creator and not the big bang. Some things baffle me. Like why are Catholics pro choice but vote Democrat 60% of the time. My main question is this. When does the bible say adam or whatever occured. I have three preacher friends. One says 6,000 bc,one says 10,000 bc and one says man has been in the U.S. 18,000bp. I don't want to get into name calling but are there web sites or books or thoughts about the issue out there. My thoughts are that the bible might be wrong on a couple things and the sciencetist are wrong on a few things. I think they will blend together in the end. I don't think that man came from apes or Neanderthal but their branches below that might come together.Please be civil.Thanks in advance.

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aj - I watched a great documentary this morning in my Bible study class,  Our teacher was gone and left us this movie about the eruption, and future studies of Mt Saint Helens.  http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/mount_st_helens.html

From study of the Minuit layers of debris some 1000 feet deep, geologists have determined these formations appear to have taken hundreds of thousands to form.  In reality, it all happened in 5 days.  There is much more about upright trees stuck in the bottom of Spirit Lake which would appear to geologists 500 years from now to have petrified, and buried under several new forests.  Two years after the eruption, there was a mud slide which chisled out a canyon one-forth the size of the Grand Canyon in only a few days.  There are now doubts about the age of all the earth's major canyons.  This study is disproving all geological data to date, but is being squelched because it has all been done independent of the major players.  REAL INTERESTING STUFF! 

I've stated my beliefs on here many times and have on this thread so you all know how I stand on God's Word, the Biblical Timeline, etc.
This may be sort of hijacking the thread but on a vacation to the Grand Canyon a few years ago I was watching a show about the formation of the Canyon. It said that if the Grand Canyon's existence was a 24 hour day man has been around for only    1/24 th of one second of that day.  How old does that make it ?

I am not a smart man(forrest gump) but I think the earth is alot older than man. Is time relative? I really don't have a dog in this fight but I am interested,confused, and on an on. If someone was stranded on the plains in say 1900 lived to the age of ten...died of consumption never hearing the lords word...does he go to hell? signed a wanna be geologist,anthropologist,cattle breeder, and Reagan Republican.

We are all born with a sin nature in need of the Lord's saving Grace see Ephesians 2:1-10 To answer your question in part - I was taught there was some age of accountability - age 2, 5 , 10 who knows what is exact. You could split hairs and say the 10 year old plains boy never had the chance to deny or receive Christ so did he suffer eternal damnation or not ??? I guess if you come to know the Lord you will find out when you get to Heaven.

farwest said:

Were you able to sit up straight. Just kidding. LOL

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I moved around a little bit.    Despite, staying up pretty late & getting up early, I can honestly say, in my adulthood, I've never once fallen sleep during "the preaching".         

aj said:

I am not a smart man(forrest gump) but I think the earth is alot older than man. Is time relative? I really don't have a dog in this fight but I am interested,confused, and on an on. If someone was stranded on the plains in say 1900 lived to the age of ten...died of consumption never hearing the lords word...does he go to hell? signed a wanna be geologist,anthropologist,cattle breeder, and Reagan Republican.

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If God created an "adult" Adam & an "adult" Eve, why couldn't he make an "adult" earth?       Seriously, why couldn't God have created a million year old Earth?  Why couldn't He create trees that were hundreds of years old?   Why couldn't He create the Grand Canyon instantly or anything else?     


RE the 10 year old 1900's plains boy...

Deuteronomy 4:29... "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul."

If that plains boy seeks God, he will find God.  I did will all my heart & soul (see below).  Worked out good for me.


1 Chronicles 28:9... "...for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you..."

The LORD would have searched that plains boy's heart continually.  If that boy sought after God with his whole heart, that boy would find God.  See below... God searched mine & I found God. 


2 Chronicles 15:2... "... If you seek him, he will be found by you..."

Pretty self explanatory.  Those who seek God, find God. 

I was raised one way, attended a private "religous" school, as I got into my late teens/early 20's, I began to question everything & considered just about everything, including non-Christian religions... I got extremely confused, but I always knew deep in my heart that Jesus was real.  I cried out to Him repeatedly to help me understand.  I kept on doing it.  It took a while, several years actually, but slowly He began to direct my paths & I slowly began to understand.  In His due time, the scales began to slowly fall from my eyes & I began to see things that I never saw before & I could comprehend things that I could never comprehend before.   Looking back, I can't even understand why I used to believe what I believed & growing up, I was a pretty hardcore church goer... Sundays + several times per week.  Looking back, I'm glad that it took several years.  It was torture during the process, but it was all in my very best interest.  If I was able to find God, after I sought Him, with hundreds of false religions & cults in the world today confusing me like crazy, that "plains boy" surely could find God too. 

I have NO DOUBT (zero) that if that "plains boy" would ever accept the Gospel in any other location, under any other circumstances, that God would put that "plains boy" in that exact "other" location & circumstance.  God knows who will & who will not accept Him.         


Lamentations 3:25... "The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him, to the one who seeks him;"

Amen!  If the "plains boy" sought God... The LORD would be good to him too! 


Psalm 14:2... "The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God."

"Any" means those who live on Islands in the Pacific, the jungles of Africa, the pre-1900 Plains in the USA, and anywhere else that humans have ever lived or that you can possibly think of.  He looks for any seeking Him & if He finds any, God will make Himself real to them, someway, somehow.  God found the Ethiopian eunuch out in the middle of a desert seeking Him.  So God sent Phillip away from an area where many were being saved, just to preach the Gospel message to this 1 eunuch, who was having questions while reading the OT.  God cares about 1 person just as much as He cares about 1,000's.  He looks down from Heaven & He will not miss anybody, no matter where they live or how old they are! 


Acts 17:26-27... "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.  God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

If that really had happened, God would have put that "plains boy" alone in the plains for a very good reason.  He picks where we live & He does it so that we will reach out to Him.  If that boy was all alone, maybe God did it so that the boy would cry out to the LORD for help.  God is perfectly good & He has our very best interest in mind... always!  If another location or circumstance would get that boy saved, God would pick another location and/or circumstance.     


Hebrews 11:6... "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

If that "plains boy" had sought God... God would've rewarded that boy.  Trust me, if that boy was willing to accept God under any circumstance, God would put that boy in that exact circumstance.  The sad reality is that many will not accept God under any circumstance, even some who may be reading this right now or who sit in churches, & God know exactly who those people are.   

Now, it could be argued that the "plains boy" may not have known that there was a God.  Well, here is what God's Word, has to say about that...

Romans 1:18-20... "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

God says that men have no excuse for not knowing about Him.  It's interesting that years ago, a small company owned by a Christian man, gave all their new hires a lie detector test & they asked the question, "Do you believe in God?".  Everyone who said "no", reportedly failed the lie detector test.  And I believe it! 


I agree with Shortdawg about an age of accountability (David looked forward to seeing His young son in Heaven).  I just don't know exactly when it is.  I personally don't think that there is a certain age & it's probably a different age & point for all.  I think that it's probably fairly young, but, God knows exactly when it is & every individual knows too & that is all that matters.  Also, you will never worry about a "deserted 10 year old plains boy" any more than God will worry about them, even if it was your own kid.  God is the creator of all & He loves all of His creatures.   He knows exactly where they are at all times.  And He knows which ones will accept Him & which ones will reject Him. 


Bottom line... I hear this question or similar ones a lot & I admit that it is a good question.  But the truth is, God is a lot more All-Mighty than questions like this one give Him credit for being.  The question places all the focus on the "poor little plains boy" rather than placing the focus on a Holy, Awesome, Righteous, Just, All-Knowing, All-Present, All-Powerful God, who loves all people more than we ever could, including those like that deserted plains boy.  IMHO, if that "plains boy" actually went to hell.  He would've gone to hell, even if he sat in a New Testament, Bible believing Church, week after week after week for his entire life.  God knows those who would accept or reject Him under any circumstance.  He knows everything! 


Hope that helps!
TJ                 

Before I dive into this one, I'll state my biases because we all have them:

I am a Catholic.

I am a licensed geologist practicing in the environental field.

I've spent a lot more time studying and discussing this issue than most of you could imagine. 

Most (or at least many) scientists in this and every other field are christian, including many that work in the field of evolutionary biology.  These folks are not working to try to "disprove the bible."

How long is portion of Genesis that describes the creation of the earth?  Don't you think there might be a little detail left out?  What there is in Genesis is remarkably accurate considering when it was "written" - particularly the order that things were created in.  This order of creation is backed up by the geologic record.  Our current method of measuring time is also very new.  It wasn't the same system of time that was used when the New Testament was written, let alone when the various books of the Old Testament were created -  most of which existed orally long before they were written down.  People that try to use the bible to determine exact timelines for creation were long ago ignorant.  We know better now and the ones that try to use it that literally are now either at best intentionally ignorant.

Writing is a relatively recent human invention.  The stories of Genesis were passed down through oral tradition which is the reason the same general themes are found in the origin stories of many religons.  The fact that those stories are remarkably consistent is pretty strong proof for anyone needing it that they were divinely inspired.

To me it boils down to this.  We understand a very small fraction of the whole story - through a combination of religion and science.  They are not diametrically opposed to one another.  You get radicals on either side that think they know everything, but the the middle "80%" are who does the real work ing trying to understand.  That's what God gave us a brain to do and is what differentiates us as humans.  We were created to worry about a lot more than where the next meal is coing from.

To me, it comes across as somewhat arrogant as a human to be adamant that God just went "poof" and the world and everything in it existed just as it does now.  That is a feeble-minded attempt to explain something that has to be unimaginably complex.  I believe that natural selection/evolution is an incredibly complex and elegant mechanism that God used to create our world.  We don't begin to understand but a fraction of it.  There fact that it is so complex and "long-term" is proof to me that it is divinely guided and not random.

In regards to the comments about the video discussing Mount St. Helens - that's all a bunch of crap that discredits "Christian scientists" and makes me really mad.  Go pull up an aerial photograph of the Grand Canyon on Google and then compare it to Mount St. Helens and show me the canyon that is remotely 1/4 of its size.  Folks, that doesn't pass the common sense test.  The people that throw this stuff out have a very narrow agenda.  That's fine if they want to promote it, but don't pretend its science.

Examples of human evolution are all around us.  Look at the size of people now vs. 100 years ago.  It's due to nutrition and selective breeding.  Do you think there weren't major changes in technology (i.e. hunting techniques, the advent of agriculture) in the last several hundred thousand years?  It's awfully arrogant to think that we just now figured out how to do that for ourselves in the last 6,000 years.

They only way to solve a really big problem or to answer a very complex question is to keep breaking it down into smaller pieces until you get a piece you can get your arms around.  It's not a scientist's job to try to prove the bible.  It's not a preachers job to try to prove the bible - aren't we supposed to rely on faith.  When you come up with the same answers by looking at it from two completely different directions is what makes me believe I'm raising my kids the correct way.

In answer to the original question:  The earth hardened and turned into "rock" at least 4.6 billion years ago.  No or very little life existed for about 87% of the time since then.  Sometime between 1 billion and 570 million years ago life started developing in force - by God's hand in my opinion.  The Phanerozoic Eon (age of evident life) started around 570 million years ago.  Most of it lived in the sea.  True dinosaurs started showing up around 245 million years ago and died out about 66 million years ago (at least the big ones did).  Mammals survived whatever happened (and maybe dinosaurs in the form of birds) and have been on the rise sense.

Humans showed up around 2 million years ago (the name for the past 2 million years is the Quaternary Period).  I don't pretend to know when "Adam and Eve" were created.  Doesn't really matter, sometime or another God gave us a spirit.  Early humans - which did not look exactly like us - didn't have the same size brains on us.  Somehow, someway, we learned to use our brains.  I don't think that just happened by chance - not when it hadn't happened once in the previous hundreds of millions of years. 

chambero said:

To me, it comes across as somewhat arrogant as a human to be adamant that God just went "poof" and the world and everything in it existed just as it does now.  That is a feeble-minded attempt to explain something that has to be unimaginably complex.  I believe that natural selection/evolution is an incredibly complex and elegant mechanism that God used to create our world.  We don't begin to understand but a fraction of it.  There fact that it is so complex and "long-term" is proof to me that is divinely guided and not random.

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You are entitled to your beliefs & I respect them, despite the fact that we disagree.  I only want to address this one point... Why couldn't an All-Mighty, All-Powerful God simply "speak" as the Bible claims & the world come into existence?  Adam & Eve were incredibly complex creations & they were created as adults.  The earth could have been created that way too.  It's not arrogant to think that God is way more complex & elegant than His own creation, in fact, it should be expected, IMHO.