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Offline Judge

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2014, 11:39:49 AM »
It is just not a 100 dollars tho, it's a 1000.00 dollars and shipping on top of that depending where you are located. But what I'm getting at is it drives me kinda crazy, that they have a 10 dose min plus charge way to much so that people will breed there best, if a bull is good enough he should be able to work on a wide variety of cows in any breed.

Online Medium Rare

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2014, 02:05:58 PM »
It is just not a 100 dollars tho, it's a 1000.00 dollars and shipping on top of that depending where you are located. But what I'm getting at is it drives me kinda crazy, that they have a 10 dose min plus charge way to much so that people will breed there best, if a bull is good enough he should be able to work on a wide variety of cows in any breed.

As long as it is on the market for anyone to buy, I don't blame them for setting the price where they want.  Everyone can see his pedigree and everyone has the ability to take a stab at breeding a replica of their own.  The effort involved in such a venture makes the $100 look awfully cheap to me. 

Several years ago I had a guy ask about a couple canes of our herd bull and I cringed just thinking about the negative impact it could have on the bull and my operation.  His cows were well below average, his management skills were poor, his ability to put the right bulls on the right cows was all but non existent, and on top of all of the above he liked to tell everyone in the neighborhood his business. When his mismanaged calves didn't come close to topping the local market or when no one was interested in buying his "replacement heifers" it was always the bull and bull owners fault and he'd tell everyone he met that BullX was crap.  He could have used the best bull to walk the earth and it wasn't going to give him the results he desired.  I priced it high enough I was sure he wouldn't be interested as I figured the coffee shop back lash I would get from that would blow over much faster than the calves looking like crap the next season.  I have no doubt it was the right decision.

As far as the cane deal, anyone who has privately sold semen knows how much of a pain in the fingertips it is to sell 3 straws to Jon, 4 straws to Jim, 7 straws to Jack, and on and on and on.  If I ever privately sell a decent volume of semen on a bull again, it will be by the cane and worth my time, or not at all.

Offline Doc

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2014, 06:04:38 PM »
It is just not a 100 dollars tho, it's a 1000.00 dollars and shipping on top of that depending where you are located. But what I'm getting at is it drives me kinda crazy, that they have a 10 dose min plus charge way to much so that people will breed there best, if a bull is good enough he should be able to work on a wide variety of cows in any breed.
Pretty easy solution. Don't buy it!! The shipping should only add about $18/straw to the cost. I'm like Medium rare. The 3 straw purchase at $25/straw is a hassle. Although. sometimes you have to do it to try to get people to try your bull. If you have a bull that won what all he had won, why not charge more than what they are charging for every club calf bull and unshown bull out there. I can remember when PaDo Boxer was named Nat'l Champion bull and Don priced the semen at $50/straw , 10 straw minimum and people freaked out. Except the ones that thought enough of a bull that truly deserved to be named Nat'l Champion and try him .
 If he should be able to work on a wide variety of cows, why not spend an extra $70 or $75 for a calf by him. I say kudos to them if they are selling the semen for that. I wish I had half the money back from semen that I threw out on bulls that the calves were junk or the EPD's went from good to horrible in 1 calf crop, but at the time I bought the semen I looked at "well it's just $250 for 10 straws".
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Offline sue

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2014, 08:23:25 PM »
Reading along - I dont know if the owners of Element are WHR members or not? If they are then Jan 1,15 we should see epds on line and if they are not well then we will not? This goes for all or any non whr shorthorn cattle. Looking forward to this change and really loving multi- breed epds.  Best of luck with Element sales- if you're interested in this pedigree, several embryo packages sell in Denver next month.  Catalog on line www.shorthorncountry.net

Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline ty378

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2014, 01:24:37 PM »
Doc its like juge said they hqve it high so it vets used on the best cows, i dont agree on selling 2 doses but 5 is a good number. What happens to the guys who have multiple breeds like me i own 2 shorthorn cows that i would like to use element on but am i going to spend 1000 plus dollars to get 2 cows bred when angus wre my main breed? The answer is prob not.

Offline Doc

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2014, 06:33:59 PM »
Doc its like juge said they hqve it high so it vets used on the best cows, i dont agree on selling 2 doses but 5 is a good number. What happens to the guys who have multiple breeds like me i own 2 shorthorn cows that i would like to use element on but am i going to spend 1000 plus dollars to get 2 cows bred when angus wre my main breed? The answer is prob not.
If you could control semen on your bull to where it was only used on the best cows and therefore hopefully control the caliber of the calves that are produced , which in turn should make more people want to spend the $100/straw to buy the semen, wouldn't you? I would. Find someone to split a cane. I don't think there is anything saying you couldn't do that.
 
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Offline jnm

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2014, 09:43:41 PM »
I looked up EPD's on these bulls; Bw for one is 4.6 and other is 5.3. Is everyone comfortable using bulls with EPD's this high?

Offline Doc

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2014, 07:26:09 AM »
I looked up EPD's on these bulls; Bw for one is 4.6 and other is 5.3. Is everyone comfortable using bulls with EPD's this high?

Depends on what you are breeding to and trying to accomplish. You didn't put the rest of the picture up there. Their weaning and yearling EPD's are to 20 to 30 points over the breed average, plus they are a little over on milk. So you give up some on BW ( avg is 2.33) but gain a lot on weights. I don't know that either bull is being marketed as a heifer bull.
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Offline justintime

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2014, 09:42:56 AM »
There seems to be some people who think that every sire should be available for them to use. I don't think this is ever the case in any breed. I think a breed is in a better situation when many sires are used and in this case, I think there are lots of excellent breeding bulls that can be used.
There are lots of makes of cars on the market but not all of them meet my needs and many are priced beyond what I am willing to pay. Most everything in life seems to be designed in this way... semen is not the exception.
If you don't want to put out $1000 for 10 straws of semen, either partner with someone like Doc has mentioned or select a sire that does meet your budget limits. The list is wide and diverse, and there are many great choices you can make.

As a side note, I am always looking for sires that few others are using, that meet my criteria. I have just purchased my 3rd semen share in a bull that costs $2500 for 20 straws of semen. I like this bull's calves and in my opinion, this is a minimal cost to be able to use a sire that I like.... and I also like the fact that few others are using him!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 09:49:00 AM by justintime »
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Offline knabe

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2014, 09:55:17 AM »
What does one see in this bull that is so compelling they have to use him  but complain about the price? 


That he was champion twice?
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Offline knabe

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2014, 09:57:38 AM »
Good point grant on cost of semen.


At least w semen, one doesn't have to buy the bull, feed him, fix the fence, deal with fights, or getting in the wrong field. 
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Offline aj

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2014, 11:31:21 AM »
I have weird tastes........but to me he is just the same ole show ring genetics.....rolled over and over again. Another great big Shorthorn bull with no testicles. Manufactured from day one......but I wish them luck. I hate the color.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2014, 12:11:40 PM »
What does one see in this bull that is so compelling they have to use him  but complain about the price? 


That he was champion twice?

This is what I can't figure out either. The bull is just okay, but if the owners can get that price for the semen, good for them.

If the bull could handle his rear pastern and have some coordination in his front end, he'd be pretty good. He's a big wrecking ball type of animal, not a lot of subtlety. Not saying he doesn't have a use, but I'm not sure he's going to sire an animal with enough quality to compete nationally in the US.
Shorthorn cattle and genetic opportunities available at all times. (515) 520 1972

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2014, 12:22:40 PM »
Good point grant on cost of semen.


At least w semen, one doesn't have to buy the bull, feed him, fix the fence, deal with fights, or getting in the wrong field.
And, if you do your homework correctly regarding pedigree evaluation, you can use him over a number of generations to reinforce the desired traits at minimal cost. Provided, of course, that he comes from some good prepotent line-bred stock!

I don't know the aforementioned bull's pedigrees suffice to say that I have heard of Horseshoe Creek and have no knowledge of the BISS programme. I am not in Canada or the USA.

Offline sue

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Re: BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2014, 01:33:56 PM »
Spring 2015 epds have posted ! Owners of Element are WHR members so his epds are on line. I thought DF Pure Gold ( sire of Element) semen sold for $100/unit back when we had A.I directories?
I am a little surprised the number of breeders that are not WHR ?

 Breed Averages: CE 4.04  BW 2.23 WW 47   YW 52  Milk 19.67  Maternal Calving Ease 1.44
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

 

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