Black hided myth assc.

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aj

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I got to wondering if a web site such as Blackhidedmyth.com might be feasable. It would be an assc of cattle people that helped explain the insanity of the black hided myth. If you had backing from the Shorthorn assc, Red Angus assc,Brawnvieh, or whoever you could gather some support for the site. 50% of Black Angus cattle don't grade and the Black exotic cattle are a joke as far as grading choice is concerned. Business is war and we are going to have to compete for market share. The myth that cattle have to be black to be good is insane. When you could pool data and post it online to debunk the myth would it not be good. 30 years ago the industry average for cattle grading choice was 70%. The industry went insane and started making cattle black. Now the industry average is 50% choice. It just seems wrong to me.period. Any takers?.
 

knabe

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why not set up a retained ownership program within the association.  perhaps the obstacles are not the black hide at all but the people behind the buying and selling each other.
 

Jill

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The banding together seems to be the problem, the Angus and Dairy Association do a fabulous job of sticking together and marketing a product, just judging from the Shorthorn group on this board I don't see anyone getting along well enough to put together a cooperative agenda.JMO
 

mark tenenbaum

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Right on AJ-There are any number of good breeds of cattle that arent black-INCLUDING 2 out of 3 of the ORIGINAL 3 British breeds YATTA YATTA-there happen to be some dam good white cattle-rw .etc etc-Why should the people who produce the product (large and small) be dictated to by a hide choice which in truth isnt black or even Angus as represented ,the only logical solution is to have all the unblack breed assocs. do extremly large retained ownership feeds at reasonable locations which is probably one of many kickers,the resultant coop effort-if it could be accomplished.would market quite a liitle bit of cattle,if non black commercials could be incorporated somehow at the feeder levelO0
 

Freddy

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There was an article on a Angus breeder in one of the papers to day ,an the breeder went to Canada an purchased a dark cream
Charolais bull to use on his reg. Angus cows ,part of them , The bulls from these cows will produce 3/4 Angus a quarter Charolais ,says they will have some butt an extra bone to the cattle .  He still will sell  reg. Angus bulls just thought his customers needed another choice to raise most profitable cattle  possible from him...The red Charolais though will produce a black hided animal from Angus cows ....This breeder had traveled to quite a few feedlots an they told him the grey Angus Charolais cross were the most consistant feeder cattle for them ....but are not considered black hided ,,,
 

chambero

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Why your website wouldn't work:

1.  You are trying to solve your own problem - not your customers.  Who would your audience be?  Consumers generally aren't disatisfied with beef now, they aren't willing to pay more (the best beef this country raises goes overseas), and the feedlots/packers aren't unhappy with the quality of beef they are currently feeding. 

2.  The fastest way to a long term dead end in any business is negative advertising.  You talk about what's wrong with "black" when what you should do is promote what's right with "red" or "white" or whatever.  Fact is your wrong about "black".  Number one, the stats you promote about grading is based on all cattle - not just blacks.  The other fact you ignore is that consumers want leaner meat.  They don't want the cattle that were getting raised 30+ years ago.  Yea, they graded choice at a higher clip, but most were way too fat and wasteful.  You are talking about a bell curve.  Nowadays, we err on the side of high select, not high YG choice.  Primarily - you don't have a single stat to backup your claim that black hided exotics are a "joke".  There are mountains of data to the contrary.  Fastest way to lose credibility is to not be able to back up your claims with real data.

3.  You would need to focus on the honest benefits of your cattle.  For the same reason that carcasses from black cattle really aren't any better than colored cattle, the converse is true - carcasses from colored cattle aren't better than black cattle - otherwise the market would prefer them.  Money talks.  The real issue isn't carcass quality of colored cattle vs. blacks - its possible benefits of colored cattle in hot environments.  Problem is - I don't think you'd find anyone but a shorthorn breeder that thinks shorthorns are actually tough cattle under hot range conditions.  I don't know if that is true or not, but perception is reality and most commercial cattlemen believe that in a large part of the country.  Red Angus, Charolais, and others don't have that perception.

4.  The real audience you should target is the commercial cattlemen.  The message that should be preached is that in the grand scheme of things, nothing trumps weaning weight for income.  It really doesn't matter that carcasses from Charolais-X calves bring a very few pennies less per pound, the breeder is going to generate more income off of the extra weaning weights and hybrid vigor that you get on your calves.  Weight wins out over everything else.  Feed efficiency is a close second, but really isn't measurable because genetic differences are really overwhelmed by climatic conditions.

5.  The other fact is that if you have good colored cattle in large enough numbers, you don't have trouble finding buyers now as many of you can attest to.  Your effort should be focused on banding together so your cattle never have to see a sale barn but are sold direct to feedlot buyers - not on telling consumers, packers, and feedlots that they don't know what they are doing by using black cattle.
 

Mark H

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Great post Chambero!

The main thing breeders of other cattle besides Angus have to do is give reasons why their cattle are worth more money.  Telling other cattlemen that their cattle are worth less than they thought will win no friends when it comes to buying bulls. Want to show you breed is worth more money?  Show you give better value to every member of the production chain and your bred will succeed.
Like you said non traditionally marked continental cattle frequently out do their traditionally marked cousins in terms of performance.  Red Charolais are a prime example of this.  They stayed in the herd despite being different  because they made money.  I know plenty of guys that raise simm angus cows that use Red Charolais bulls and they get the CAB premium with increased performance in the calves.  Does this make black hided cattle bad? No but it raise questions if hide color really matters in the larger scheme of things.
The real future is going to be retained ownership where you are paid a portion of the proceeds from your calves as they progress through the production chain right through to  the breaking down of the carcass.  We are no where near this now but it is coming.
 

chambero

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We have black cattle because we listen to our customers and that's what they tell us they want - right or wrong.  But I believe color doesn't matter - and that is the winnable argument.
 

LostFarmer

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The only thing that is not debatable in this debate is that the angus association beat the other associations in the marketing department.  They quite frankly whooped arse on the other breeds.  Is black better?  I don't know.  Does the end consumer think black is better?  Absolutely! Or they wouldn't pay the premium. 

I personally think some of the best cattle out there are red.  Because of the "black is best" market only the best of the red cattle were kept.  Because of the market we kept black bulls that were maybe lesser quality than a red bull but he was black.  A red calf had to be a real stud to avoid the knife.  Same with cows.  Two cows on the bubble and the black stayed the red hit the sale barn.  Just as breeding one trait won't work neither will breeding a single color. 

Good cattle knows no breed or color. 
 

blackcows

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Jill said:
The banding together seems to be the problem, the Angus and Dairy Association do a fabulous job of sticking together and marketing a product, just judging from the Shorthorn group on this board I don't see anyone getting along well enough to put together a cooperative agenda.JMO

In my opinion even if they do get along the biggest issue facing the Shorthorn breed is that for many beef is just a byproduct of the quest for a purple ribbon.  I am not saying every breeder is that way but the ones that are in my area would be more intersted in banding togeather to market show cattle rather than beef...nothing wrong with that but it's a reality.

As LostFarmer mentioned the reason that black cattle are worth more money is becuase the end customer believes they are worth more and until someone changes their mind those that are in the beef business will continue to produce what the customer will pay for.
 

aj

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So it is a myth or a fad? I think the Charolais\Angus cross is a tremendous terminal cross from what I have heard. I have heard Red Angus are purer in general than Black Angus cause the showring genetics were injected into Angus bloodlines. That may be changing also.I think this is a topic worth disscussing anyway. I always wondered how many good colored genetics got left behind in say the Limi's,Simis,Salers, race for the black hide. I always thought the first black Simmi's were terrible cause the black genetics were scarce. Probably like the first polled cattle weren't to hot. Just seems like so much money,effort, blood sweat and tears were spent on making exotic cattle black.....and what do we have to show for it? Poorer cattle?
 

Show Steaks

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industry is changing and select cuts of meat are being sold at a higher price with less discounts.....even making them a premium for a month or 2 last year.
and when you get this little assoc formed and do your research you will see that black cattle finish and marble better than most other breeds
 

JSchroeder

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I have heard Red Angus are purer in general than Black Angus cause the showring genetics were injected into Angus bloodlines.

The funny part about this statement is the show ring is about the only place a Red Angus is required to be pure.
 

JSchroeder

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They at least require 1A at shows.  Outside of the show ring there are the categories that allow cattle to be openly crossbred without having to even lie about it.

It's just ironic that you would claim Red Angus is more 'pure' than Angus when they actually have the ability to allow impurity into the breed written into their rules.
 

Silver

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Dietrich, ID
Angus cattle have become less pure over time because they allowed Chi and Beef Fresian (fancy name for a buff Holstein) to get into the same line, and then came the misconception if its black it must be Angus. That is were the carcass quality went right out the window, and has started to give Angus cattle a bad name. So why don't we all just worry about our own herds and make them as good as we can, and keep your own lines as pure as possible.
 

justintime

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I am old enough to remember a time when Angus cattle were not real popular. My family had very good friends who lived a few miles away, that raised purebred Angus cattle. I can still hear my dad saying that he felt sorry for those Angus breeders who had such a hard time selling their cattle.This seems hard to believe now, but I remember those days as if they were yesterday. The Regina Bull Sale was one of the biggest bull sales in the world at the time, usually selling 1300- 1600 bulls. The Angus always had the lowest average of all the breeds sold there. I can also remember my dad saying that he would love to have 20 good black Angus cows, but it was so hard to sell them in those days that he never did buy any. He came very close to buying some when our family friends dispersed their herd in 1970. They had excellent cattle and the sale was a disaster. I think they averaged under $300 on a powerful set of cows. If I had been smart enough to buy that herd and continue to raise the type of cattle this man had, I would be sitting on the top of the world today. There were some truly amazing cows in that herd and very few of them sold for more than $400.

I was in college at the time, and this man offered me 10 quarters of land ( 1600 acres) for $80,000. I went to Farm Credit( the major ag lender at the time) and I my loan application was turned down. The loans officer told me that I could never pay for it by farming and he told me I had too much education to farm. My dad had even put another 10 quarters of his land up as security but the loan was still rejected. I have not ever since then seen my dad as mad as he was that day. Within 5 years of this, I could have sold 2 quarters of this land and paid for the rest of it. I drive by that land today and see approximately 80 oil wells on it and almost cry.The person who was able to buy it is a very wealthy man now. As usual, timing is everything in this business.  I sure wish I could meet that ag lender today and give him a swift kick in the slats!

Getting back to the black hided issue, while I do agree that the black hided supremacy is a total myth, I also agree that the only way it will ever be overcome is to prove that cattle of other colors are as good or superior. The Angus breed did not win this war by telling everyone that other breeds were not as good as they were. They won it by convincing people that Angus cattle offered an advantage. The CAB program was just in it's infancy about the time we quit feeding cattle, but I already could see that this program was going to have an impact. I take my hat off to the Angus breed for simply being smart and designing a program that basically ensured their future. I would be the first person in line to say that Angus cattle do not offer any more quality of carcass and meat than many other cattle of other colors. I would also say that there are still lots of black hided cattle that are very inferior to some other cattle of other colors. That said, perception is often everything, and the Angus association has done an excellent job of convincing the consumer that Angus beef is the highest quality possible. I think this is pure cow do-do, but the fact remains that the Angus breed outsmarted every other breed out there. Now we see most breeds trying to develop black branches in their breeds, just to stay in the competition. Here in Canada, I am starting to see a slow movement away from buying just black bulls by cattlemen. Angus bull sales are still good, but I see a widening gap between the bulls that sell well, and those that pass with no bids. Being black is just not enough anymore, and cattlemen will move to a bull of another breed if they feel they have more to offer.

As I wrote in a previous thread a few weeks ago, I think the " black myth" is more pronounced in the US than in Canada. Here in Canada, our beef grading is based on marbling so we have seen good marbling cattle start to move to the front of the line that are not necessarily black hided. The CAB program in Canada is a very effective breed promotional tool, but I do not think it is even close to the monopoly it has in the US. When you go to other countries, there is no real benefit to having a black hide, so it appears to me that this is simply a " man made" marketing scheme that has worked beyond anyone's fondest dreams. The road to changing this is long, and it will require a large group of people banding together to prove that a black hide is not everything. We cannot get mad at the Angus people who came up with their superior marketing ideas. They were true visionairies, and they deserve the credit for outsmarting everyone else.
 

M.A.K.

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I have alot of experience with all types of cattle because of what I have done for a living.  For 3 years I was an order buyer and for the last 10 years I have worked in the feed business.  I also have my own herd of cows and feed cattle as well (most bought back from people that buy bulls from me).  My herd is about half pb angus and half pb hereford with a few clubby cows just for fun.  I can tell you over the last 3 years the hereford bulls are the first to sell, but there are some commercial cow guys that won't even look at anything but angus bulls.  My experience with the feedlot end of it is that catlle that gain fast and efficient have a better chance at making money than the ones that don't.  It does not matter what color or breed they are.  That is what needs to be sold to your costumers.  I have raised and worked with good and bad cattle of all breeds that's just the way it works in the real world.  If you just bash your competitors you make yourself look small and maybe need to take a personall inventory on what your doing.  No one breed is the absolute best of the best in every situation.  If that were the case we would all breed the same cattle as everyone else.  When it comes to end product there are genetic lines in all breeds that are better than others.  That comes from real world personall experience.  To just say that black hided cattle are inferior is making it sound like you are not paying attention.  The same as saying that colored cattle are superior to blacks.  Each ranch is different from the ranch down the road.  Each region is different from the next.  Each cattleman has to make breeding decisions based on their own bottom line and what works for them and their end goals.  I will not look or talk down to anyone that is making decisions to make the success of their opperation better. 
 
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