Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: Heritage Shorthorn on September 02, 2019, 11:11:14 PM

Title: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on September 02, 2019, 11:11:14 PM
Dr. Martin Lee has written an interesting article on the history of "Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle" that is in the Cattle Viewpoints section on the Heritage Shorthorn Society website (www.heritageshorthornsociety.org (http://www.heritageshorthornsociety.org)).
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: Doc on September 03, 2019, 04:43:12 AM
You can also get it from a lot of the Irish Shorthorns. Especially if they trace back to AF Shannon Margie 027 aka "Black Nose Margie"
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 03, 2019, 11:56:27 AM
They were and remain probably the greatest cow family from the time they arrived on-Ill take a black nose anytime as good as those cattle are
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: -XBAR- on September 03, 2019, 12:39:14 PM
Iíve got an exceptional roan bull calf this year that has a dark noseó even his eyelids are dark. His exposed pigment elsewhere is pink though.  I personally dislike it and am reluctant to keep him as I sure donít want to intensify this trait. 
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 03, 2019, 12:49:18 PM
Do you ever sell commercial? Hed probably be a blue maker O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: aj on September 04, 2019, 07:52:41 AM
I think hoof color is more interesting to talk about. Purebred Shorthorns can have almost white hooves.......or dark hooves. One foot trimmer told me dark hooves are more durable. I don't know. Seems like in my experience........Shorthorns are better footed than Red Angus.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 04, 2019, 11:17:33 AM
Dark hoofs are definitely more durable if the cattle come from non-fescue to fescue Its not that bad when they are born on fescue. O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: kiblercattle on September 06, 2019, 12:12:44 AM
White footed shorthorns and Herefords imo experience do not hold up. I would agree with you aj that shorthorns as a whole are better footed than red angus. I was at a red angus bull sale this spring the only good footed bulls were the sim composites.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: justintime on September 08, 2019, 08:35:18 AM
Several years ago, I was asked to cull a set of 380 yearling bulls of all breeds on feet and legs in a bull test station. Virtually every breed was included. Everything was going fine, with a few bulls eliminated from every breed, for feet and leg issues, until I got to the Red Angus bulls. I was concerned whether I should use the same scrutiny in them as I did with all the other breeds. They had, by far, the most bad footed bulls of any breed in the station. The biggest problem was toes that crossed and some of them were extremely bad. I think the Red Angus breed has worked hard to eliminate this issue but I am sure some still shows up occasionally.
In regards to black noses, many of the black noses in today's Shorthorns do go back to some of the Irish imports. Black noses also have existed in the breed since the very early days. i remember several imported bulls from Scotland that had black noses. Drynie Argosy was a herd sire at Remitall Cattle Co in Alberta and he had a black nose and Louis Latimer still imported him, because he thought he was the best bull he saw there and he decided to import him and breed around the black noses.  Another famous bull that came from Scotland was Glamis Benefactor, who many considered to be the best Shorthorn bull ever developed in the breed. He broke some price records when he sold. He not only had a black nose, but he had black pigment all over his body. His hair color around his eyes was black, and the skin around his anus was pitch black. I remember going to Louada Farms in Ontario, shortly after they purchased and imported the entire Denend herd from Scotland. I was surprised at the number of cows in that herd that had black noses.  A few years ago, I had a great opportunity to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary, who owned the famous Calrossie herd in Scotland. In our discussions about the Shorthorns in the 50s and 60s in Scotland, Donald said that the reason Shorthorns had almost become extinct in the UK was because the breeders in the 50s and 60s refused to breed cattle that the commercial producers were wanting. He said that there was issues in Shorthorns in that era, with things like double muscling and he also mentioned black noses and black pigment. This visit with the McGillvary's was one I will always remember. The Calrossie herd set all sorts of records back in that era. Donald told me that in 1952, he took 13 bulls to the Perth sale and he averaged over 12,000 guinneas on them, which amounts to over an average of $120,000 in today's money evaluation.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: knabe on September 08, 2019, 01:13:38 PM
Iíve got an exceptional roan bull calf this year that has a dark noseó even his eyelids are dark. His exposed pigment elsewhere is pink though.  I personally dislike it and am reluctant to keep him as I sure donít want to intensify this trait.


all else exceptional?  what the heck is wrong with a black nose. it doesn't get sunburned as easy?
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 09, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
Exactly-and its probably from the ancient white cattle that ran basically wild centuries ago and whos genetics made Shorthorns very easy keeping foragers for a time -(them days is long gone Bucko)-I wonder who the "purists" sell any cattle to- when they keep eliminating phenotypes that commercial people actually would use and or not worry about such as black noses-which probably beget sturdier dark hooves. Similar to all the so-called syndicated or $150 semen bulls who are "travellors" in the same constricted circles of "breeders"-none of whom have ANY relevance to a commercial person who might try a Shorthorn in their travels or the huddled masses who only have a few cows-Which really represents a majority of Shorthorn breeders O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: Shorthorn-Fed on September 09, 2019, 02:29:17 PM
Exactly-and its probably from the ancient white cattle that ran basically wild centuries ago and whos genetics made Shorthorns very easy keeping foragers for a time -(them days is long gone Bucko)
Sidetracking a bit but what makes you say that? There are lots of operations who run on mainly foraging pasture and then bales in the winter other than replacement females who see extra attention for the purpose of growth and first time breeding.

Russ
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 09, 2019, 06:48:26 PM
Im talking about down here-The cattle here are alot different than the Canadian cattle-Also referring to the cattle I remember in the sixties-There were plenty of things wrong with them-but the ones I used to see stayed too fat on way less than the cattle of today-and people quit using them because they thought the carcasses were too fat O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: E6 Durhams on September 10, 2019, 04:21:41 PM
Think heíd work on some black cows ?
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: shorthorngeek on September 10, 2019, 07:15:14 PM
Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 10, 2019, 07:53:48 PM
Think heíd work on some black cows ?//// Clubby Shorthorns O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 10, 2019, 07:56:03 PM
Pink eyes? Halter break one-halloween is right around the corner O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: -XBAR- on September 11, 2019, 01:19:03 PM
Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

Acceptable to who? The ASA is the only shorthorn registry in the world that allows black nose calves to be registered.  I know of no other pink pigment breed that doesnít disqualify dark noses.   Hereford has to be pink.  Red angus pink.  Charolais, will issue 15/16ths papers (one cross short of purebred) to bulls if dark nose.  Etc.   

*telling side note.  Chars gotta be 31/32 to be issued purebred papers but breeds like Simmental will call a 7/8 a purebred, which is only 3 crosses.  Meanwhile, geneticist claim it takes 7 crosses to rid outside gene expression.  Easy to see which associations are about merit (those with closed herd books) and which are about revenue. *
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: cbcr on September 11, 2019, 05:25:56 PM
Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

Acceptable to who? The ASA is the only shorthorn registry in the world that allows black nose calves to be registered.  I know of no other pink pigment breed that doesnít disqualify dark noses.   Hereford has to be pink.  Red angus pink.  Charolais, will issue 15/16ths papers (one cross short of purebred) to bulls if dark nose.  Etc.   

*telling side note.  Chars gotta be 31/32 to be issued purebred papers but breeds like Simmental will call a 7/8 a purebred, which is only 3 crosses.  Meanwhile, geneticist claim it takes 7 crosses to rid outside gene expression.  Easy to see which associations are about merit (those with closed herd books) and which are about revenue. *

Most breed association that allow for breeding up, at the 7/8 (87.5%) they will call them purebred and then in calculating animals that are sired by or out of the 7/8 animal it is figured at 100%.  This is wrong in so many ways, but if 7/8 animals are used in breeding up resulting animals will actually be much less that 7/8.  Our members have requested that breed percentage be actual and that is what we do.  They do not want any of that "fuzzy math".

One breed that we have registered a few animals of is the Milking Shorthorn.  We break out the Milking Shorthorn (MS), Illawarra(AY), Norwegian Red (NR) and Holstein (HO) breed percentage of the animal.  Most have been totally shocked as to how little Milking Shorthorn breed is in their animals.

I know in talking with some geneticist that one breed that can have an effect is the Chianina.  Animals that are as low as 3%.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: idalee on September 12, 2019, 05:35:29 AM
Those who appear to know the history of the Shorthorn do not accept that there are Wild White Cattle in their ancestry.    The Shorthorn has an oral history of being bred "pure" since the Dukes of Northumberland back into the 1500's.    The article tries to make it clear that black noses are not an indication of impure ancestry,  but some of you just can't get your heads around that!   2nd Duke of Northumberland,  bred by Thomas Bates in the 1840's,  was a full brother to the bull he considered to be the best he ever bred,  Duke of Northumberland,   He was used in both Scotland and Ireland and figures in the early pedigrees of Shorthorns in both those countries.   2nd Duke had a black nose.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 12, 2019, 08:09:43 PM
All you have to do is look at the paintings of cattle in Holland from hundreds of years ago-these cattle were bred with the hienz 57 Teeswater area cattle  to begin what became the Shorthorn gene source -The Dutch cattle JMO-carried the distinct roan gene and looked like scraggly roans from 400-500 years ago-The white cattle dont have a specific history but certainly played a part in the development animals that became Shorthorns according to very old info I read in England along time ago-And to a couple scholarly old breeders we visited. They were thought to have either come with the Roman Conquerors-(the original Chis were white-went back to early Roman Empire-and were plenty crazy enough to run wild).Others thought maybe the Vikings introduced them-WHATEVER O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: DLD on September 12, 2019, 09:33:22 PM
May not have much if any bearing on the conversation, but back in 1981 I showed a Shorthorn steer from Deer Trail that had a black nose. He was a good one, was breed champion or reserve every time he was shown but one, before Tulsa. A prominent Shorthorn breeder here in Oklahoma classified Shorthorn steers at the Tulsa State Fair - he kicked him out “because of his black nose”.  Which might have been reasonable except his own kids were showing Shorthorn steers and the other 5 or 6 he kicked out didn’t have black noses, but had also been doing some winning. The small satisfaction was that he missed one, and his kids didn’t have Champion - still had reserve and the next one in sale order, though.

But I digress. Deer Trail did 100% stand behind the steer being purebred.  I used to be able to tell you his sire and maternal grandsire, seems like maybe Improver and/or Leader, but i’ve slept once or twice since then. Maybe the black nose was why he was a steer and not left a bull...
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: beebe on September 12, 2019, 09:49:38 PM
I once had a bull that was the top gaining bull at the Ideal bull test station that had a black nose.  He never sired one.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 13, 2019, 08:36:21 AM
And furthermore-If a really good filet minon comes from a non-certified pink nose Shorthorn with a black nose-Im still gonna eat  it  O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 13, 2019, 09:25:59 AM
May not have much if any bearing on the conversation, but back in 1981 I showed a Shorthorn steer from Deer Trail that had a black nose. He was a good one, was breed champion or reserve every time he was shown but one, before Tulsa. A prominent Shorthorn breeder here in Oklahoma classified Shorthorn steers at the Tulsa State Fair - he kicked him out ďbecause of his black noseĒ.  Which might have been reasonable except his own kids were showing Shorthorn steers and the other 5 or 6 he kicked out didnít have black noses, but had also been doing some winning. The small satisfaction was that he missed one, and his kids didnít have Champion - still had reserve and the next one in sale order, though.

But I digress. Deer Trail did 100% stand behind the steer being purebred.  I used to be able to tell you his sire and maternal grandsire, seems like maybe Improver and/or Leader, but iíve slept once or twice since then. Maybe the black nose was why he was a steer and not left a bull...  At that time he probably was sired by Guiness or possibly a Dynomite 80 who was a light roan dividend son-out of a Marvel cow-Deertrail Goliath was also a Guiness x Marvel  O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on September 13, 2019, 01:08:04 PM
Black noses....OK.

White wild cattle is said to be part of the original stock that produced the improved Durham. Many literature describe it.
On middle 1700, Charles Colling used a half blood red Galloway bull that produces Foljambe...Galloway have black noses. It was described as Alloy blood.
Irish cattle have not pedigree accurate description, so, all options are open for Ayrshire, Holstein, Friesian and more.
Chianina have black noses and he is in some pedigrees.

So....black noses are on the genes....you must to decide to cut off or to keep in it.
I just cut off!
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: DLD on September 13, 2019, 08:59:30 PM
May not have much if any bearing on the conversation, but back in 1981 I showed a Shorthorn steer from Deer Trail that had a black nose. He was a good one, was breed champion or reserve every time he was shown but one, before Tulsa. A prominent Shorthorn breeder here in Oklahoma classified Shorthorn steers at the Tulsa State Fair - he kicked him out ďbecause of his black noseĒ.  Which might have been reasonable except his own kids were showing Shorthorn steers and the other 5 or 6 he kicked out didnít have black noses, but had also been doing some winning. The small satisfaction was that he missed one, and his kids didnít have Champion - still had reserve and the next one in sale order, though.

But I digress. Deer Trail did 100% stand behind the steer being purebred.  I used to be able to tell you his sire and maternal grandsire, seems like maybe Improver and/or Leader, but iíve slept once or twice since then. Maybe the black nose was why he was a steer and not left a bull...  At that time he probably was sired by Guiness or possibly a Dynomite 80 who was a light roan dividend son-out of a Marvel cow-Deertrail Goliath was also a Guiness x Marvel  O0

I found some old notes in my scrapbook. They said the steer was sired by Deerpark Leader 13th.  He was born in 1973, so thatís sure possible. If i knew the maternal side I didnít make a note of that.
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 13, 2019, 10:20:00 PM
That would be Dividend-the most influential Shorthorn from the 70s till today-Probably in terms of global influence-the farthest reaching Shorthorn bull in history O0
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: DLD on September 13, 2019, 10:29:41 PM
Shows what I know, I guess.  My family raised Polled Herefords, that was the only Shorthorn I ever had anything to do with until my kids started showing.  Weíve had a handful since, but to be honest I still donít keep up with pedigrees. 
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: idalee on September 15, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
Charles Colling did,  indeed,  use a bull that was one-half Galloway.   In the year 1791,  a neighbor of Colling had two Galloway heifers that he contracted to be bred to the bull Bollingbroke (86).   One,  a red,  polled heifer had a roan  bull calf in the year 1792.  This bull was bred to an old cow who had not had a calf in two years which resulted in a bull Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) and born in the year 1794.    Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) was used moderately.    Foljambe (263) was born in 1787 and therefore could not have been sired by any one of these Galloway cross bulls!   Furthermore,  there has never been any mention in Shorthorn history books that Foljambe (263) had any Galloway breeding.
The article on Heritage Shorthorns deals with the Native Shorthorn,  which,  by definition does not have any of the crosses which have occurred in the past 75 years of Shorthorn breeding.  Black noses appearing on some of those crossed-up modern Shorthorns are not the same as the black  noses appearing historically in the Shorthorn breed. 
Title: Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on September 16, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
Charles Colling did,  indeed,  use a bull that was one-half Galloway.   In the year 1791,  a neighbor of Colling had two Galloway heifers that he contracted to be bred to the bull Bollingbroke (86).   One,  a red,  polled heifer had a roan  bull calf in the year 1792.  This bull was bred to an old cow who had not had a calf in two years which resulted in a bull Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) and born in the year 1794.    Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) was used moderately.    Foljambe (263) was born in 1787 and therefore could not have been sired by any one of these Galloway cross bulls!   Furthermore,  there has never been any mention in Shorthorn history books that Foljambe (263) had any Galloway breeding.
The article on Heritage Shorthorns deals with the Native Shorthorn,  which,  by definition does not have any of the crosses which have occurred in the past 75 years of Shorthorn breeding.  Black noses appearing on some of those crossed-up modern Shorthorns are not the same as the black  noses appearing historically in the Shorthorn breed.


You is right.
I make confusion regarding the bulls name.
Sorry for my mistake.