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Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2013, 09:09:38 AM »
Deerpark Improver did not have a black nose himself, but he left many offspring that did. I always thought the chance of getting a calf with a black nose was much higher from the Improver line than from the Leader line.
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Offline irishshorthorns

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2013, 10:46:44 AM »
 Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
[/quote]     

There is clearly a line in the above quote where you stated that Deerpark Improver had a black nose. I have never seen a Deerpark animal with any shape or form of a black nose. All of the attached pics of deeply bred Deerpark cattle which were prominent in the U.S.A. and Canada don't have any hint of black either.

Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2013, 11:13:03 AM »
My apology. I meant to say that Improver sired many black noses, and I never even noticed what I had written. Improver 2nd ( Guinness) also sired lots of black noses, as did many other sires from the Improver line. IDS Duke of Dublin was a grandson of Improver and he sired a few black noses, and many more with smutty colored noses.
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Offline jaimiediamond

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2013, 11:50:18 AM »
If you are looking for the origin of black noses in Shorthorns, you better go back to the origin of the breed and start there. While black noses in some of today's Shorthorns can be traced to appendix heritage, there is probably as many black noses in Shorthorns that can be traced back to their origin in Scotland. My grandfather established our Shorthorn herd in 1917 and I can still remember him telling a story of the best bull he ever raised, who was born in 1927 from parents born in Scotland. This bull had a black nose and was pretty well worthless as a breeding animal in that era.
Glamis Benefactor was imported to America, in the 60s and was the undefeated Champion at every British show he was ever shown at. He was such a powerful bull overall, that people felt his black nose had to be overlooked as he had so much to offer the breed. I saw Benefactor at KC Shorthorn Farms, and not only was his nose black but his entire head was black as well. He had black pigment on most of his body. 
Another excellent bull that was imported from Scotland that had a black nose was Drynie Argosy. He was purchased by Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, AB when they were looking for a new herd sire in the 60s as well. Not only did Argosy have a black nose, but he was red and white in color, which was shunned as much as black noses in that day. Remitall decided to bring him to Canada despite these characteristics as they felt he was the best overall bull they could find in Scotland.
I am not sure exactly where the black noses started but I am pretty sure it goes back to the foundation of the breed. Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
I am afraid it stems before the 60's - Grandpa and great Uncle Eldon showed in the19 30 and 40's . My father tells stories of using a steaming hot baked potato on the nose . The scarred tissue was pulled off show morning - "bright pink noses placed higher in class". The Lavender cow family was moved from the middle of the class to the top for that reason alone.

OK, but the black turn again after a time...or not?
Burning the superficial tissue you is taking off it, but it turn black again or not?
By the way, isn't a honest way to sale bulls, as they will pass it for progeny.
Will keep it black and sale for commercial purpose.
Thanks a lot for all.
I didnt get the feeling the baked potato was used on just "smutty noses" it was used on all of the show string . Grand father was a honest man, bulls vigor and libido was a much larger concern especially into the 50's .

The nose is very sensitive and moist so burning it enough to create a scab that would pull away in my opinion is outragous and cruel.  These burns would have been 2nd degree burns  (also known as partial thickness burns) which is when damage penetrates into some of the underlying layers of tissue.  Needless to say these are very painful burns. The procedure your grandfather was aware of (I hope he was not doing it himself) was a very cruel and dishonest one all to place higher in a class? 


Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2013, 12:01:26 PM »
Like Sartre would say, it's a sham from beginning to end.   Any shorthorn, or any other light pigmented breed for that matter, that throws a black nose clearly has genetic infusion from a dark pigmented breed.  It's just preposterous "legitimate" shorthorn breeders get on here and try to 'legitimize" black noses.  Charolais' born w/ black nose- automatic 15/16ths designation.  Herefords w/ black nose- unregisterable. Red Angus w/ black nose - unregisterable (as purebreds). 
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Offline GM

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2013, 12:23:37 PM »
Not sure about the 50's or 60's, but it seems more likely that the black noses from the 70's and 80's would stem from Holstein or Chi as opposed to Irish Shorthorns.

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2013, 12:34:47 PM »
Guys, we are olny debating the matter, not is necessary start another war!
I heard that on 60's a Calrossie bull was black nose also, pre irish and pre new typw. So can assume that is an inhereted character that is keep on shadows due register standard.
Also not call none old breeder as dishonest due burning noses, I will not do it by personal criteria. And we all know that many famous breeders were dishonest enough inserting disqualifing genetics on breed on early decades, the difference is that some guys like some ones and another guys not like some ones....but we know enough breeders on past that had - little honesty as well.
Another point...the Shortorn breed was damage in many points, some guys will tell - performance is the way...OK, agree, so not claim for many purity on cattle....other will claim that character is the way...ok, also agree, but not claim that have not enough performance bulls on breed.
The reality is that many shi# was make on breed for a quick profity, now we are receiving the bill.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 12:36:08 PM by Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR »

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2013, 01:58:32 PM »
Black, grey and smutty noses have been around since the breed started registering cattle. It was selected against. Some of the original animals recorded in the first herd books were described as grey, yellow, yellow flecked and couple had markings similar to herefords. Some of these were behind very influential animals but I have no idea if those genes were eliminated due to selection pressure. There was a time in herefords where the favorite color was a darker red with what was referred to as a feather neck. Later the yellower colour became popular and in recent years the selection for pigmentation around the eyes has resulted in some having red patches. In Angus the selection was away from the red carriers until the Red Angus emerged in the late 60's, early 70's. Also in Angus white ahead of the udder was never allowed and today it seems to be acceptable. Some of these changes may be from outside blood but I would guess some is just selection pressure. In earlier shorthorns the red and white and the light roans were common but selection almost eliminated those colours in beef shorthorns during the 40's, 50's and 60's. We also have occasionally got a dark nose from the Deerpark Improver 2 bloodline and sometimes it pops up in a calf that has nothing in the close up pedigree with dark noses.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 01:59:22 PM by Okotoks »

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2013, 02:10:30 PM »
Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
     

There is clearly a line in the above quote where you stated that Deerpark Improver had a black nose. I have never seen a Deerpark animal with any shape or form of a black nose. All of the attached pics of deeply bred Deerpark cattle which were prominent in the U.S.A. and Canada don't have any hint of black either.
[/quote]
We definitely have gotten smutty to black noses from some of the bulls we used with Deerpark Improver 2 in them. The use of Irish really increased our birth weights as well but certainly didn't cause calving difficulties. In fact the irish influenced seemed very good for calving ease. Probably just as well that Deerpark Improver didn't have a black nose, introducing TH and Digital Sublaxation (DS) to North America is enough!

Offline Doc

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2013, 03:14:33 PM »
Deerpark Improver did not have a black nose himself, but he left many offspring that did. I always thought the chance of getting a calf with a black nose was much higher from the Improver line than from the Leader line.

 JIT, You are right on old Improver. One of that stands out the most was a daughter , AF Shannon Margie 027 (black nosed Margie, as she was known as) . Cedar Crest Farms in TN bought her from Aldens. She had a dtr, Margie's Designer 7044 that Al Bullis in TN owned. 7044 produced several good herd bulls but she would definitely produce offspring with black noses or an occasional heavy black hairs in the face, tail or even on the side.
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Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2013, 03:47:29 PM »
I agree with okotoks that black noses in Shorthorns goes back to the beginning of the breed. I have breed magazines that go back into the 40s and breed registry journals that go back to 1886. In the front of the breed journals from 1886 to the 1930s, the annual meeting minutes for the Canadian Shorthorn Association are included. When you read these minutes, there was often mention of traits that should be watched closely, such as black noses, spotted coat color and white socks. While you could still register Shorthorns with these characteristics, they definitely did not sell for as much. There is also mention in one set of minutes of a concern about the polled Shorthorns that some breeders were raising. It was felt at that time that these polled cattle were inferior quality and that they should be infused with the superior horned cattle in the breed. Interesting how times change!
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2013, 06:54:44 PM »
That picture of Improve 2nd looks like a black nose that somebody took a baked potato to... (lol)

So where is the topic talking about the ASA allowing black shorthorns as high as 15/16ths? Now that's a good topic to discuss. Can somebody point me to it? <rock>

Offline caledon101

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2013, 08:04:08 PM »
I was the fool that launched that little "black shorthorn" rocket a month or so ago......and, you know what? All of the discussions and debates around hair or skin colour and purity are simply destructive in my opinion. A complete waste of time.
Every herd book has a margin of error in it's accuracy and, there was a time when blood typing and DNA verification didn't exist as a tool to audit breeders. Mistakes happen in breeding.....unintentional or otherwise. There's no such thing as "100%" pure Shorthorn. Even a bar of gold is only claimed to be .999 pure.
I don't care what colour a Shorthorn is. It could be 5 different colours for all I care. There are far more important issues for the breed to focus on beyond something possibly having a black nose. Calving ease would be one of them.
And yes I agree.... Damn cruel and inhumane to deliberately burn an animal that trusts the humans that handle it. Someone doing that should be banned for life from the breed association.

Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2013, 09:06:33 PM »

I am afraid it stems before the 60's - Grandpa and great Uncle Eldon showed in the19 30 and 40's . My father tells stories of using a steaming hot baked potato on the nose . The scarred tissue was pulled off show morning - "bright pink noses placed higher in class". The Lavender cow family was moved from the middle of the class to the top for that reason alone.
[/quote]

I can hardly imagine anyone doing this as well. I had a bull here last winter who had pulled his nose ring out a year before. In a very cold winter storm he got slight frostbite in the tissue where the ring was pulled out. I saw how painful that was to that bull, and he hardly ate anything for several days even though I treated the frost bite area several times a day.
This may have helped them get a higher placing but it sounds like one of the cruelest and unethical practices I have ever heard of.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline frostback

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2013, 09:16:39 PM »
Sounds like there are quality issues with judges no matter what era it is. If they were picking on nose colour and not quality.
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