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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2013, 07:14:42 PM »
And what color nose do Chianinas have?  Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner.

The heifer is linebred on the top to two non shorthorn bulls and has a couple shots of non shorthorn genetics on the bottom and you really wonder where the non shorthorn characteristics come from?

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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2013, 07:56:53 PM »
http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/pedigree.cgi?_breedcode=MS&_countrycode=CAN&_association=21&_regnumberprefix=*&_regnumber=19694&_regnumbersuffix=


Above is a link to her pedigree.The extended pedigre link is there. She is 93.8% shorthorn, most of the introduced blood is a ways back but the black nose could come from there, Rodeo Drive is in the 4th generation twice and once in the 7th and 8th. I have also seen black noses from Gold Spear and he is also there in the 4th. The two close up dams by HS Rodeo Drive might have been two of Rodeo Drive's best daughters, the WHR Rodeo Cumberland 3R52 and the CF Rodeo Casino 100. Another impressive daughter was Shadybrook Lindora. I think we all make decisions about which bloodlines work for us and to many this heifers pedigree is royalty. I prefer not to have black or smutty noses but they do seem to pop up from parents with normal colouring. I'm not sure how that works genetically because once the black is gone you would expect it to be gone as red is recessive ???
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 08:07:21 PM by Okotoks »

Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2013, 08:10:29 PM »
In this case, I expect the black nose comes from the Rodeo Drive in her background but like has been mentioned before, black or smutty colored noses seem to show up occasionally. I have had one in the past dozen years or more. Over the past decades, it continues to show up even though it has been selected against for generations.
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Offline tamarack

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2013, 10:49:42 PM »
I had a bull calf born this year with a black nose have not reg him yet but is a very good calf  his dam is Jerlyn s Emily 27r and his sire is Kenlene Unique 3u I have tried to post pic but am having trouble sizeing the pic as it is too big will keep trying.

Offline caledon101

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2013, 09:52:28 AM »
I will never understand the attention and focus around colour. There's no such thing as 100% pure Shorthorns. The same applies to all breeds. I am not sure anybody even knows what the real ancestry was on those Irish import sires. Good cattle are good cattle and it's unfortunate to see colour bias hurt both commercial and purebred producers at sale time.
The day when breed associations demand that every single registered animal must be DNA verified is when we can start to talk about "pure".

Online knabe

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2013, 10:30:52 AM »
Is the black a birth mark?

I remember a Charolais bull in the 80's used to throw yellow birth marks. Big patches of it.

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2013, 11:26:19 AM »

I remember a Charolais bull in the 80's used to throw yellow birth marks. Big patches of it.

I bet it wasn't yellow birth marks but the spotting gene being expressed.  I had never heard of a spotting gene in Charolais until I bought a bull from M6 that carried it.  Carrier Chars are usually very hard to (visually) identify as the white patches are often hard to distinguish from their already diluted color.  It is very apparent in their offspring though as, when bred to red cows for example, the calves will be a straw color with yellow or white  patches.  Very similar to the patterns you'd get covering some marked up shorthorns with your typical Charolais bull. 
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Offline Mark H

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2013, 10:49:17 PM »
I have had purebred and full french calves that had a light brown or yellow spot or two and were generally golden in color.  This did not reduce the bloodlines reputation for producing useful cattle.  In the red factor Charolais you can get the white patterns from the breeds used to upgrade from coming through.  One heavily used red factor bull (Onaway Stonewalker) put calves out that were white faced with tan marking like a Hereford.  Other bulls put calves that looked like a pale full blood Maine.  In fact a dark red purebred Charolais bull was sold in Canada at a bull sale.  He is going to make his living in a commercial herd.
Something to keep in mind is that European stock is not pure-not by a log shot.  Given WWII record were destroyed and cattle were quickly moved to the mountains to keep them away from the fighting.   In this situation plenty of mixing happened (no fences) with no record keeping.  Ths makes for some interesting stories what breeds intermingled. 

Offline tamarack

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2013, 11:23:35 PM »
finally resized photo this is my purebred shorthorn with black nose

Offline caledon101

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2013, 08:00:52 AM »
Tamarack....very nice looking calf and well managed obviously.

Mark....your point on europe is interesting and I have no doubt this happened. There was no parentage verification back then to catch errors.... honest or otherwise.
When Simmentals were first imported they arrived from several different countries....France (Pie Rouge, Abondance and Montbeliard)....Switzerland...... Germany and Austria (Fleckvieh).
I liked working with the Swiss bloodlines more than any of the others but I appreciated the French genetics also.
I'm sure long before these original imports arrived in North America there was some cross border sharing of genetics within Europe.
The big joke many years ago was that all you had to do was fly your Simmies over Austria or Germany and they qualified as Fleckvieh. I'm sure that wasn't the case however again, this whole idea of "pure" is a perpetuated myth.

Congratulations to all those who have ancestors who trace back to the Mayflower or even the Vikings. However, in the end, we are all composed of genetics from afar. It's no different with livestock.
A black nose mean zero in my view. It isn't some genetic red flag, defect or indicator of a problem. I certainly wouldn't be heating up the potato anytime soon either.
 
The livestock industry spends way too much time and energy focusing on aspects that have no economic or practical value. Colour and "purity" is at the top of that list.
There are a few Shorthorn folks who never pass up the opportunity to remind me and others that they will only buy "100%" animals. The more I hear them say it the more it tells me that the only person they are trying to convince are themselves.
I absolutely respect the viewpoint of others and, a breed needs all the good members it can get. The most successful breeds are the ones who are most inclusive and understanding.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 08:10:24 AM by caledon101 »

Offline aj

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2013, 08:12:43 AM »
I would concur with Caledon
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline caledon101

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2013, 09:15:48 AM »
Back in the 80's I was a dedicated fullblood Simmental breeder. We all knew that the growing non-fullbood/purebred segment of our industry was generating better animals with superior structural correctness and less calving issues; they were well on their way to dominating the show ring also.
The reason we didn't deviate from the fullblood program was simply due to economics. Fullbloods consistently brought more money; it was dollars and cents.
I remember my brother and I talking with some Swiss breeders in Brandon Manitoba (1986?) at the Bar 5 pre-sale party. They had come all the way from the Simme Valley where they resided to see the 800+ fullblood cow herd in Douglas Manitoba.
I asked them what they thought of the cowherd and they told me that it just blew them away; the quality and depth of so many fullbloods. They couldn't believe, in less than 20 years in North America, that so many structural improvements had been made. It was a testament to the competency of the Bar 5 owners and managers.

On a separate subject, I asked them how many polled fullbloods they each had in their own herds. At that time we were starting to see a surge in that segment here in Eastern Canada.
They told me zero; not even a mutation. I suggested that perhaps it occurs but no one takes much notice or talks about it? They said that if any breeder ever turned up with one in the calf crop they would certainly all know about it; it would be a hot topic. They talk to each other just like we do!

I can understand the devotion to colour,  "purity" or any other aspect if the economics exist to support it. What I don't understand is the emotional or even religious attachments. Again, I respect the right of every breeder to follow their own path and trust that they are equally tolerant of others who may choose to go in a different direction.

I would like to believe that no knowledgable, open minded breeder or judge would ever look down on an animal because it had a black nose or an unusual colour spot in the hair coat. And, I trust they wouldn't look down on any breeder who chooses to pursue non-appendix or fullblood production provided those folks don't preach it to the rest of us because they think we are all lost and in need of illumination.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 09:29:45 AM by caledon101 »

Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2013, 09:40:32 AM »
caledon.... you brought back many memories with your comments on Bar 5. For about 10 years, I spent a month at Bar 5 before their sales. I would spend 2 weeks there and then go home for a week, then return for 2 weeks before the sale. As most of the Bar 5 owners were formally Shorthorn breeders, I knew them all very well.
The owners of Bar 5 were some of the most progressive cattle breeders I have ever met. They had some amazing sales, and had the first million dollar sale in the Simmental breed. After that sale, I was sitting with John and Mac Draper, and John said that it was a great sale, but no one knew that they still needed to gather another $750,000 to so that Bar 5 would show a profit that year. The day following the sale, we trucked cattle back to the ranch and John Draper spent most of his time on the phone. Someone mentioned to him that the Rockefeller family in New York were interested in starting a Simmental herd. John was on a plane the next morning to New York and met with Mrs Rockefeller. Two days later, he returned to Brandon, MB accompanied by Mrs. Rockefeller, and before she had left,she had purchased over $900,000 of cattle. That was the start of the Hudson Pines herd.
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Online knabe

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2013, 10:19:53 AM »
I would concur with Caledon

including club calf and defects as well i assume.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2013, 10:43:05 AM »
Tamarack....very nice looking calf and well managed obviously.

Mark....your point on europe is interesting and I have no doubt this happened. There was no parentage verification back then to catch errors.... honest or otherwise.
When Simmentals were first imported they arrived from several different countries....France (Pie Rouge, Abondance and Montbeliard)....Switzerland...... Germany and Austria (Fleckvieh).
I liked working with the Swiss bloodlines more than any of the others but I appreciated the French genetics also.
I'm sure long before these original imports arrived in North America there was some cross border sharing of genetics within Europe.
The big joke many years ago was that all you had to do was fly your Simmies over Austria or Germany and they qualified as Fleckvieh. I'm sure that wasn't the case however again, this whole idea of "pure" is a perpetuated myth.

Congratulations to all those who have ancestors who trace back to the Mayflower or even the Vikings. However, in the end, we are all composed of genetics from afar. It's no different with livestock.
A black nose mean zero in my view. It isn't some genetic red flag, defect or indicator of a problem. I certainly wouldn't be heating up the potato anytime soon either.
 
The livestock industry spends way too much time and energy focusing on aspects that have no economic or practical value. Colour and "purity" is at the top of that list.
There are a few Shorthorn folks who never pass up the opportunity to remind me and others that they will only buy "100%" animals. The more I hear them say it the more it tells me that the only person they are trying to convince are themselves.
I absolutely respect the viewpoint of others and, a breed needs all the good members it can get. The most successful breeds are the ones who are most inclusive and understanding.

 Composed from 'genetics from afar' - no doubt.  The difference lies in how far back the mongrelization occurred.  You realize WW2 and the references were, in terms of the cattle, 50 to 100 generations ago!?  A friend of mine is a research scientist is Austin and his emphasis is around molecular biology and biochemistry.  Both of these fields are way over my head but- I've brought the 'black nose' and other issues up with him in the past regarding gene expression just to try and pick his brain a little.   He tells me that in order to reach a STABILIZED 'purebred' - defined as an individual void of any outside gene expression (like a black nose)- that it's common understanding that it takes SEVEN crosses to a STABILIZED individual that is ALSO void of any outside gene expression.  It is no wonder that non shorthorn characteristics are still somewhat prevalent in so called 'purebreds' today.  A first cross 15/16ths (which is only 4 crosses, 3 short of ridding the line of outside expression, itself) can be bred to another 15/16ths and the resulting offspring be considered - by the association- as a purebred.  This is non sense.  1) Neither of the parent stock's shorthorn blood percentages were ever STABILIZED.  Gene expression from the grade animal is still absolutely prevalent and WILL be expressed.  2) As long as 'purebred' individuals with varying percentages of shorthorn blood are bred to each other without a STABILIZED fixed percentage ever being set, consistency -HOMOZYGOSITY-  breed character will always be an issue.  Each generation the percentage blood varies; each generation the characteristics vary.   

While 'purity' in the nostalgic sense may hold no economic value, utilizing STABILIZED genetics ABSOLUTELY does.  Does the term PREPOTENCY ring a bell?  While perhaps hard to quantify, there is an abundance of value in using stabilized lines as foundation breeding animals- the ability to attain maximum HETEROSIS most importantly.  The sole reason for breeding purebred animals is to be able to provide the commercial cattleman with purebred bulls. If the bull's genetics are not stabilized, you are selling the buyer short!  The bull's level of prepotency will be compromised and the resulting calf crop will fall short of what it could have otherwise been.  Too many breeders DECEIVE the commercial cattleman by selling them CROSSBRED bulls.  The uninformed buyer visually sees the heterosis expression in the crossbred bull and automatically assumes his superiority.  What this buyer fails to realize is that the extra 'HV punch' you want retained for his next calf crop, was already expressed in the bull he bought!  It's an illusion!  Using crossbreds you will never attain the levels you would using stabilized lines.  This defines the goal of linebreeding- to FIX the predictability.  Evaluating breed characteristics is the easiest and most reliable way of determining the stability of the line. 

The most successful breed ASSOCIATIONS maybe the ones that are most inclusive, but the most VALUABLE breeds are the ones that are most exclusive!

Remember my name and hold me to it- the unadulterated FULLBLOOD genetics of all breeds will be the most valuable in the years coming. 
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