Purebred status black Shorthorns?? Has this concept ever been explored?

Help Support Steer Planet:

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
Just curious.....has this subject ever been discussed or raised in North America?? If there is any history to share on this I would enjoy hearing it.
Some non-black breeds with great history and tradition have eliminated colour bias and some have not.
 

aj

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,420
Location
western kansas
If I remember right....you coun't have blacks, Then in there somewhere they allowed black half bloods. It may be higher % now but they wouldn't allow black purebreds.
 

sue

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
1,906
Yes. if black they paper as 50%. If you have a black x shorthorn cross and they produce a red white or roan... sired by a Purebred Shorthorn then you have a 3/4 shorthorn

Yes. some breeders are making Black Shorthorn Plus cattle.
 

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
Thanks! 
I probably didn't present the question properly.
I am aware that any black animal in the Shorthorn breed is immediately rated at 50% purity. It's in the by-laws.
There are lots of black Shorthorn Plus animals in the USA; and, some really good ones too!
My question is, has any individual or group of breeders, promoted the concept permitting "purebred" status black Shorthorns in either the USA or Canada? Has the subject ever been seriously discussed or explored at the Association levels in either country?
Other breeds have allowed it. Has the Shorthorn industry ever considered removing the restrictions on hair coat color?
I am not suggesting they should....or should not.
But, if the restriction was removed, what would be the impact to the purebred sector of the Shorthorn industry??
 

oakview

Well-known member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,346
30 years ago, more or less, many appendix registry Shorthorns were referred to as "certified appendix registry (car)" cattle.  Yes, we discussed "black cars" very often in the old days.  They would be easy to get.  In my opinion, there are enough black cattle already, too many pretending to be Angus.  I occasionally like to pull out old magazines and AI catalogs just to remember how things have changed and how they used to be.  This past weekend, I got out an ABS catalog from the early 70's.  There were almost 70, YES SEVENTY, fullblood Simmental bulls.  You might remember them, the yellow and white ones.  There were about a dozen Angus bulls, a similar number to the Maines, Limmys, Charolais, etc.  You'd have to look long and hard to find a yellow and white Simmental, red and white Maine, or red Limmy in today's catalogs.  The Angus?  I don't think are there enough fingers and toes in my entire family to count them.  The reds, whites, and roans may not be as popular in the US as they used to be.  They are certainly more popular in other parts of the world than they are here.  If nothing else, we are unique.  Everybody knows what a Shorthorn looks like.  I hope it stays that way.  Sometimes our feelings can best be known by listening to what our kids or grandkids say.  Things can rub off.  I have a few close friends that bring cows to my place to run with my bulls and usually have a spare bull or two around that I let friends borrow.  The pay isn't good, but at least I don't have to feed them for a while!  Anyway, earlier this summer a friend brought over some of his cows.  One of them was a black half-blood Shorthorn.  After seeing her, Alex, one of my 9 year old twin grandsons, promptly said, " Get her outta here!"  Wonder where he got that attitude?
 

EaglesNest

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
45
I agree with oakview. There are enough black cattle trying to imitate angus. Shorthorns don't need to go down that road imho as it is just a passing trend. From what I have been hearing some breeds are getting out of the black is better mentality.  Take limousins for example they have a purebred limousin alliance which doesnt allow black animals.

 

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
As I mentioned, I am not for...or against the concept of a Purebred Black Shorthorn.
I do think the conversation is worthwhile though.
I have been to many, many annual general meetings over the years and regardless of the breed or the association, I don't recall very many where the subject of "gaining the acceptance of the commerical man" wasn't raised.
If the commercial man values black or black baldie hair coats is it wrong to produce that for him?? If that is what our customers want then why not?
As we all know, once the hide is removed at the slaughterhouse you can't tell what breed it is. And, hair is just that....hair. If so, then why is it an emotional issue?
I recall those days back in the 70's when Simmentals were hugely popular. They were anything from light yellow to mahogany red with white faces....some with or without eye pigmentation or, they were broken coloured. They certainly didn't offer black genetics.
I just wonder what the trend would be if the ASA and CSA removed the references to colour in their By Laws. Would breeders gravitate to a black program? Or, would they stay the course and not bother?? Be interesting to know that!
 

aj

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,420
Location
western kansas
As far as chasing a black hide for Shorties.......for the short run it's to late. it would take 20 years to get some good purebred black shorties. Long term maybe. There may be more emphasis for lighter colored cattle for heat reasons.......down the road.

















 

justintime

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
4,346
Location
Saskatchewan Canada
I would suggest that rather than try to " invent" another black breed, that we put our efforts to promoting the gains that could be made  by using Shorthorns on black cows. To my knowledge, hybrid vigor is still the only free thing we get in this business.  I think we are starting to see movement in this direction here in some parts of  Canada, as we are selling more and more Shorthorn bulls to commercial producers. This has happened by many breeders working hard to make it happen and our breed association has done a pretty good job ( with limited resources) of keeping the Shorthorn image in front of the industry, through a super ad campaign they have done for many years in leading national cattle magazines. I would also say that our cattle shows have also played a part as we get many commerical producers walking the Shorthorn aisles to see what the breed has to offer. I would also suggest that breeders here in Canada are more interested in showing breeding stock than just breeding show stock.
We are selling more roan and white bulls because the blue roan offspring are becoming popular. There are also some producers who want to retain the black color so they are buying red bulls. I think some Shorthorn breeders in the US are doing a good job in this regard, for example, Waukaru is selling more bulls every years to some leading commercial producers in real cow country. I think they have worked long and hard to see these results and I applaud their efforts. This does not happen over night but it takes years of concentrated work by both the producer and the association. I would also say that the producer has to do most of this work and if you expect the association to handle this for you, you will never get anywhere. This is not to say that the association does not have a role, I am only saying that the people who are able to develop markets for their breeding stock are the ones who 1) have a good product and a good breeding program and 2) have developed relationships with commercial producers themselves.
Every year I hear several breeders say that they cannot sell bulls where they live and every time I hear this I wonder if they have really tried and if they were producing something that may interest a commercial producer.
 

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
I think your point about "building relationships" with the commercial sector is a very valid one. Building the product is one thing; marketing it effectively is a separate function.
When breed associations talk about the importance of revenues and growing their volume of transactions and attracting new members it would seem logical that discussions around adding new dimensions would occur.
My understanding is the ASA has experienced some dramatic growth in registry activity via Shorthorn Plus.
It would be interesting to know what impact it has had.....the actual numbers.
 

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
Looking at the 4 year report from the Registrar on Canadian Shorthorn registrations and transfers and it has held steady with no significant loss or gain since from 2009 to 2012.
I can only extrapolate from this that if the breed in Canada stays the course without taking massive action or major steps aimed at growth the numbers will remain more or less similar for 2013, 2014 and beyond.
If the CSA is content with this and can either contain or reduce the future cost of operation then it's all good. But if they need more revenue in the future to operate effectively then fee increases will eventually be required. I don't think modest fee increases would be an issue provided they are congruent with other breed association fees.
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
605
Location
Rio Grande - RS - Brazil
Interest topic. Also a taboo topic.
At my view pointe in around 6 to 7 years we will see black Shorthorn on main herd book.
The moviment already started with Shorthorn Plus, and these ones will to be use soon on main herd book, as Irish and asterisks were used....by the way genetics is genetics, and black is dominante over all other colors....so soon black Shorthorns!
 

EaglesNest

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
45
-XBAR- said:
The day that happens, there'll be a dispersal in Pottsboro, America.

I agree when a Black crossbred gets allowed to be called PURE I'm out of the ASA and done with mainstream shorthorns. The fact that the ASA did not allow a black purebreds was a major point in my decision to become a breeder, as I have never been a believer that Black haired cattle are better. Hair color means nothing when the animal is swinging on the rail!  :-\  Hopefully this will not come to fruition.
 

Duncraggan

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
821
Fortunately I'm safe, we don't even allow black noses!

This colour discussion is like prodding a beehive with a short stick on a hot summer afternoon! BEWARE!!!!
 

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR said:
Interest topic. Also a taboo topic.
At my view pointe in around 6 to 7 years we will see black Shorthorn on main herd book.
The moviment already started with Shorthorn Plus, and these ones will to be use soon on main herd book, as Irish and asterisks were used....by the way genetics is genetics, and black is dominante over all other colors....so soon black Shorthorns!

I think your view on this might be somewhat speculative. I certainly don't know of any Black Shorthorn train steaming down the tracks. It's never been a rumour or a point of conversation; at least not that I am aware of. And, I sincerely doubt there is any movement building. A black Shorthorn cannot exceed a 50% purity rating and that can't change unless By-Laws are voted upon and approved by the membership(s). There's no threat.

The ASA has generated more registry transactions and revenue through their Shorthorn Plus and Durham Red programs. In hindsight, have these been good programs? Was the intended results realized?

I am not for....or against the concept of a Black Shorthorn. I just wonder what the reaction would be if the reference to hair color was removed from the rules of eligibity. I suspect some breeders would walk away, most would simply carry on with the status quo and not react, and some would pursue the opportunity to develop and promote a new sub-brand within the breed. And, just because a Black Shorthorn animal was available doesn't mean the commercial sector would automatically want it either?? It's not a short cut for promotion?

30 years ago Black Simmentals were pretty much a non issue. Today they seem to dominate the non-fullblood, purebred sector of the breed. Fullblood Simmentals of course cannot be black. That hasn't changed. My understanding is that in Canada black and/or solid red purebred status Simmentals now account for over 80% of all registrations.
 

caledon101

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
241
Duncraggan said:
Fortunately I'm safe, we don't even allow black noses!

This colour discussion is like prodding a beehive with a short stick on a hot summer afternoon! BEWARE!!!!

The decision to accept Maine genetics at 3/4's must have generated some heated debates also?? Some of the old timers I talk to say it saved the breed. I'm not sure if that's an accurate assessment or not but I guess the question is, what would the Shorthorn breed look like today....where would it be, if Maine genetics had not been implemented?  Better? Same? Worse?
 
Top