Black Shorthorns

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aj

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I was running a tractor listening to a entrenpreneur radio show. I got to thinking about black shorthorns. Didn't they change levels that could be black? I that only a handful of Shorthorn breeders think past the next great one next year.........and it may be to late to jump on the "black" bandwagon.......but I got to wondering about different scenarios. If a young guy with a herd of registered Black Angus cows......diverted to a Black Shorthorn project.........could they be sitting on a gold mine in 10-12 years? Is someone already doing this? I know Loving has been messing with a few black shorthorns. Seems like to me that the appendix program that Hunsley help set up....was more geared for something like this rather than raising blue roan thc, phac and dsc carriers.
 

mbigelow

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I have not tried to peruse breeding black shorthorns, rather, I have been putting a purebred bull out with my recipe for years and retain the daughter for future recipient cows.  In doing so, I have had on female that was a blue roan and was 15/16 blood.  However, she was kept at 1/2 blood status all others have been red at 7/8 or more.  I don't think black shorthorns will be a big seller for the purebred breeder but maybe the future of the commercial producer. May breeds have gone black and lack a defining image, shorthorns have stayed true to red,white and roan giving the identity moving into the future.
 

Gargan

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mbigelow said:
I have not tried to peruse breeding black shorthorns, rather, I have been putting a purebred bull out with my recipe for years and retain the daughter for future recipient cows.  In doing so, I have had on female that was a blue roan and was 15/16 blood.  However, she was kept at 1/2 blood status all others have been red at 7/8 or more.  I don't think black shorthorns will be a big seller for the purebred breeder but maybe the future of the commercial producer. May breeds have gone black and lack a defining image, shorthorns have stayed true to red,white and roan giving the identity moving into the future.
I agree with this. Simmy and limis have had success going black, but the Herefords and charolais  got in the game a little to late IMO. They haven't taken off with their black stains like the Simmy and limis have. Besides, Angus is trying to be like horns and go white now.  (lol)
 

bedrock

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The ASA commercial acceptence committee really needs to look into to this,  i believe that the 1st few breeders that can produce commercially accepted black shorthorn bulls is going to be a sell out , as in selling out every bull they can produce
 

Lucky_P

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We're kinda/sorta moving slowly in that direction with a few cow families... only up to 3/4 SH right now - and, being a commercial outfit, don't even intend to register them as Shorthorn Plus... but may, within a few years, reach the point that I've got a homebred black 'purebred' (albeit hetero black) SH bull to use in-herd on AN & SM cows. I have no illusion that folks would be beating down my doors to buy a bull here - and they'd pretty much have to commit to him when he hit the ground... or he'll soon be a steer.
Much prefer red cows - and wouldn't mind RWM or roans - but not willing to take the hit I'd take on those calves at the salebarns around here.
 

Medium Rare

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Unless you started a decade ago and are already profiting from it, it's too late.

The single trait selection CAB used to get the ball rolling on their marketing gimmick was designed to prey on weak minds. It has run it course and served its purpose. The B no longer stands for beef, and they know it. As soon as they get a chance they will move to genetic verification or registered sire requirements and the rest of the associations who sold their soul in the name of single trait selection and survival will be left out in the cold with what's left of their gene pool. It's WAY too late to hop on that train. Their own board has lost touch with many of its paying members, they'll have absolutely no issues with cutting off the nonmembers who rode their marketing coattails for free.

certify |ˈsərtəˌfī|
verb (certifies, certifying, certified) [ with obj. ]
• (often as adj. certified) officially recognize (someone or something) as possessing certain qualifications or meeting certain standards: a certified scuba instructor | board certified in obstetrics and gynecology.
• officially declare insane.

Angus |ˈæŋɡəs|
noun
an animal of a Scottish breed of hornless black beef cattle.

bullshit |ˈbo͝olˌSHit| vulgar slang
noun
stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense.
verb (bullshits, bullshitting, bullshitted) [ with obj. ]
talk nonsense to (someone), typically to be misleading or deceptive.


There is nothing wrong with good purebred shorthorn cattle. Many Angus breeders will tell you this. They know the Shorthorn x Angus F1 is a maternal machine just waiting for a terminal cross. This is an area the commercial cattle committee needs to attack. You can fix your messed up feet, frail legs, and terribly shallow heels with a Shorthorn bull. You can fix that fight or flight attitude with a shorthorn bull. You can fix those ugly cows who look like steers with a shorthorn bull. They just might be surprised with the results they get on the rail, too. Heterosis is real, they just need reminded. I think they would listen, if someone would just show them.

I don't know too many commercial cow men who would turn down the heifer on the right.

IMG_6674s.jpg

 

Medium Rare

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Lucky_P said:
We're kinda/sorta moving slowly in that direction with a few cow families... only up to 3/4 SH right now - and, being a commercial outfit, don't even intend to register them as Shorthorn Plus... but may, within a few years, reach the point that I've got a homebred black 'purebred' (albeit hetero black) SH bull to use in-herd on AN & SM cows. I have no illusion that folks would be beating down my doors to buy a bull here - and they'd pretty much have to commit to him when he hit the ground... or he'll soon be a steer.
Much prefer red cows - and wouldn't mind RWM or roans - but not willing to take the hit I'd take on those calves at the salebarns around here.

I read your posts on another forum where I can't seem to get registered.

Your herd's results would make a good promotional piece for the ASA to use in non shorthorn based commercial cattle publications.
 

Lucky_P

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Medium Rare, I have nothing but rave reviews for the results I've gotten using Shorthorn sires in our herd - and I tout them to anyone who'll listen... but there are few Shorthorn breeders in this area...closest I'm aware of is Martindell SH, over at Hardyville... and not that many commercial folks in this area are doing AI... so they're unlikely to get - or take - the chance to try a Shorthorn sire over their black cows.  I guarantee you that they'd like the resulting calves.
 

aj

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I always thought that the black hided deal might become a non factor eventually. I often wondered if red might become a more favorable color. It does seem like.......as a breed.......we do have some advantages with the appendix program as far as developing germ plasma to make adaptations in the future. Again I would state that this is what Hunsley envisioned the appendix deal to be........instead of using the shorthorn plus program as a f2 or three marketing gimic.
 

idalee

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Well, so is the next marketing idiocy "polled long horns"?   
 

librarian

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...you got to stand for something..
But its too hot to get bothered by aj's musings right now
 

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aj

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Lets throw out the black deal then. What about the idea of incorporating a marbling gene or calving ease gene from the Angus breed. In theory if you accidentally did steal "the marbling gene' through a appendix program as mentioned. I like Shorthorns......but it is not my responsibility to keep them together as breed. The beef industry drives peoples bull choices.....
 

beebe

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-XBAR- said:
The idea of black purebred shorthorns makes me want to puke-- if I wanted black cows, I'd have bought Angus.
I did want black cows so I bought Galloway.  I am blending them with Shorthorn and Tarentaise  I think if you want meat quality and calving ease, there are better choices than angus.
 

librarian

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beebe said:
-XBAR- said:
The idea of black purebred shorthorns makes me want to puke-- if I wanted black cows, I'd have bought Angus.
I did want black cows so I bought Galloway.  I am blending them with Shorthorn and Tarentaise  I think if you want meat quality and calving ease, there are better choices than angus.
Right, beebe, and Galloway bulls are always ready to donate to disadvantaged breeds.
 

aj

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I think we can be pretty "self important" on here. Where will the breeds be 100 years from now?
 

beebe

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aj said:
I think we can be pretty "self important" on here. Where will the breeds be 100 years from now?
[/qu
When I was young Herefords were the big deal.  Then later The Charlais were the big deal around here.  Then the CAB marketing ploy happened and angus got hot.  A hundred years from now it will be different.  Maybe as branded beef operations happen maybe hair color won't matter and it will be about the meat, maybe.
 

Lucky_P

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As a commercial producer breeding for performance and carcass traits (though I don't know that I'll ever be compensated adequately for them), I'd be interested in seeing ASA &/or Shorthorn breeders individually pursue genomic testing for traits beyond those we currently have epds for, like tenderness.  It might be a 'selling point' at some point, especially if the industry moves away from 'black' being the be-all/end-all - and believe me, I'd love for RED to be the NEW BLACK.

I consider shear/tenderness values/epds as significant criteria, in addition to marbling/ribeye, when I'm making Angus & Simmental sire selections - both for terminal steer production as well as for retained females which will be producing terminal calves.
The only SH sires I've been able to find any of that sort of info on, were some of the older Waukaru sires... GeneStar data on them was listed in the Shorthorn Sire Directories I used to get, back in the 2006-2009 era - and those values did play a role in which sires we chose to use.  For instance, IIRC, W. Coppertop 464 had 4 of 6 tenderness gene markers & 3 of 6 marbling gene markers - that was better than a lot of Angus sires that were 'hot' at the time - and who knows, there may be SH sires that are even better in that respect...

I know that advancing technology has brought bigger/better genomic tests than the old GeneStar marker system, and someone suggested that those markers aren't even valid for Shorthorns (though I'm not sure I understand why not), but surely I'm not the only person who'd use that information if it were available, and if Shorthorn sires were shown to bring tenderness or other traits to the table, it could perhaps convince more commercial producers to consider using Shorthorns. .
 

mark tenenbaum

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Medium Rare said:
Unless you started a decade ago and are already profiting from it, it's too late.

The single trait selection CAB used to get the ball rolling on their marketing gimmick was designed to prey on weak minds. It has run it course and served its purpose. The B no longer stands for beef, and they know it. As soon as they get a chance they will move to genetic verification or registered sire requirements and the rest of the associations who sold their soul in the name of single trait selection and survival will be left out in the cold with what's left of their gene pool. It's WAY too late to hop on that train. Their own board has lost touch with many of its paying members, they'll have absolutely no issues with cutting off the nonmembers who rode their marketing coattails for free.

certify |ˈsərtəˌfī|
verb (certifies, certifying, certified) [ with obj. ]
• (often as adj. certified) officially recognize (someone or something) as possessing certain qualifications or meeting certain standards: a certified scuba instructor | board certified in obstetrics and gynecology.
• officially declare insane.

Angus |ˈæŋɡəs|
noun
an animal of a Scottish breed of hornless black beef cattle.

bullshit |ˈbo͝olˌ****| vulgar slang
noun
stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense.
verb (bullshits, bullshitting, bullshitted) [ with obj. ]
talk nonsense to (someone), typically to be misleading or deceptive.


There is nothing wrong with good purebred shorthorn cattle. Many Angus breeders will tell you this. They know the Shorthorn x Angus F1 is a maternal machine just waiting for a terminal cross. This is an area the commercial cattle committee needs to attack. You can fix your messed up feet, frail legs, and terribly shallow heels with a Shorthorn bull. You can fix that fight or flight attitude with a shorthorn bull. You can fix those ugly cows who look like steers with a shorthorn bull. They just might be surprised with the results they get on the rail, too. Heterosis is real, they just need reminded. I think they would listen, if someone would just show them.

I don't know too many commercial cow men who would turn down the heifer on the right.

IMG_6674s.jpg
//// THATS AS WELL PUT A SYNOPSIS AS I'VE SEEN -MEDIUM RARE  HATS OFF AND YOU ARE SPEAKING FROM DOWN TO EARTH NO NONSENSE, NON BRAGADOSIO, NON ACADEMIC DAZZLE -THEORY  EXPERIENCE.BACK AROUND 10 YEARS AGO-A SHORTHORN BULL WOULD ALSO MAKE THEM A LOT THICKER-NOT TO BE A BROKEN RECORD-EXAMPLE: LYNETTE JANES LARGER-OLDSCHOLL THICK AS HELL CLUBBY BRED SHORTHORN COWS HAVE MADE ANGUS CALVES THAT NO (NON-CANADIAN) ANGUS HERD IV'E SEEN LATELY CAN BETTER-AND IM ONLY 12 MILES FROM WHITESTONE ETC.PS////// I DON'T KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT TO SHOW AGAINST THAT BLUE ON THE RIGHT !!!!!(clapping) <party> O0
 
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