BREEDERS raising CHAROLAIS composites to register ....

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Freddy

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Have a very good customer family raisng some clubby cattle and has maine -key & Angus with some Charolais in their herd ....HAD A COMPOSITE heifer and got a really nice composite heifer out of supposedly a good CHAROLAIS composite sire ,very well know ,can't get papers from this widely used sire to register calf and show at the National show in NE.  Checked with the CHAROLAIS association and they can not force owner or BREEDER to register this  HW  x purebred Charolais cow ...I was planning on raising a small herd of registered smoke females and breeding them to registered smoke bulls ....Think I will get a list of CHAROLAIS COMPOSITE  sires from ASSOCIATION so that I have better idea of how many of the CREME & SMOKE SIRES ARE ELIGIBLE TO do this with... WONDERED IF ANY ONE ELSE HAD any idea's on this ...
 

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RyanChandler

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I don't like the idea of breeding crossbreds to crossbreds but those are some great looking calves.  The word "composite" is reserved for animals whose %s are stabalized.  You're using crossbreds. 

What association are these smoke females REGISTERED in?
 

Freddy

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TO REGISTER a Charolais  composite you must have atleast one purebred registered parent in the animals pedigree or bred two registered composite to each other ....YES ,I think this would work and keep more consistancy ,you proably would need to pick A BACKGROUND BREED TO DO THIS CORRECTLY,  I  COULD SEE with the SHORTHORN as a back ground breed .  Personally would proably use  MUDDY WATER  pedigree, CARNAC X 2801 (PUREBRED CHAROLAIS cow ) as a sire to
ANGUS X CHAROLAIS cows ,many options to use and also our universitys keep telling us composites are the breed of the future ....
 

RyanChandler

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What registry are you referring to that Registers crossbreds? Your plan might work but I think you need to find a background individual to linebreed to and not a background breed.  Too much variation within the breed as a whole.  Very difficult to get consistancy when every mating is an extememe outcross.

Examples of Composites: Brangus, Gert, Braford, Simbrah, Charbray


The universities are partly right.  Every black continental breed you see is a stabalized composite.  Gelbvieh for example stabalized at 94%.  In Charolais jargon, there is a reason it takes 5-6 generations to upgrade an individual to purebred status.  It takes that many crosses to STABALIZE the animals genetics at a fixed %.
 

Mark H

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Freddy,

If you want a smoke you can register as a purebred why not use a Black Charolais bull? Laue's in Kansas has some of these cattle for you to look at.  You may also want to consider some ref factor bulls are as well.
 

Freddy

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you trying to be funny MARK H--- yOU PROABLY bombed out ---I'M TRYING TO GET SOME ATTENTION to this problem that some of the kids showing these composite heifers and breed them back to a composite they think are likely going to have problems registering them
because very few of them are registered ...  MILKMAN  I know is one of the biggest problems,some people have not gotton that far yet to know they could have a problem .....MARK have you really been using some of those bulls ....
 

Mark H

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Chill out Freddy-

I was merely suggesting a way to keep the registration on Smokes or Red cattle nothing more.  I have issues with most of the Black Charolais bulls I have seen but they are improving.  I have seen worse black Maines used as herd sires.  The best way to let people know about the registration requirements is to refer them to the AICA to make sure.  In my experience: From a show point of view red and black Charolais likely will not qualify for purebred shows in the U.S.  The way around that?  Have shows for non traditionally marked purebreds.  The general rule is that bulls must be 3/4 blood or greater to be recorded and females 1/2 blood or greater.  If you use a recorded percentage bull on recorded percentage cows the lowest percentage of either parent is assigned to the calf.  A purebred animal doesn't have to be concerned with these restrictions hence my post.
I had some red factor cattle.  They are just as easy to market and in fact some buyers want red bulls.  For a bull that would fit into any program look at HEJ Ripped a very complete bull that puts out show quality cattle.
 

Freddy

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MARK- COMPOSITE RULES are that no black cattle can be registered as composites ....The best BLACK charolais program I have run into is up by GORDON ,NE,HE OFFERS HALF BLOOD BULLS and raises ANGUS ....Richey BROTHERS of Colorado had a very good red bull for sale .....MY MAIN CONCERN IS THAT many of these clubby bulls are not registered or DNA'D and are they really what they say they are ......
 

Mark H

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Freddy,

A pioneer black/red Charolais program that would interest you is Janice Sproule at Pincher Creek, AB.  She raises some of the best red and black Charolais bulls around. in fact she got as much for her 3/4 Black Charolais bulls as for her white yearlings.  Since these were percentage bulls she was able to cull very hard and only sold the cream of the crop.  A very influential breeder but no website.
For a Charolais composite the pioneering work was done at the University of Alberta Ranch in the 1950's where a synthetic line of Angus Galloway and Charolais was formed.  you can put yourself on a waiting list for these bulls as they are doing range cattle.  They are a technicolor herd but very functional.  They were designed to cross on Herefords the biggest breed at the time.
 

HF CHARS

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I think allot of the blame with these kids buying composites and wanting to paper calves lies with us as breeders not informing our customers of how it works ,I agree that the composite bulls should be DNA tested if the want in the half blood herd book,,and the females prob should too,  you bring up some interesting points,,,I will bring these up at the next board meeting             
 

HF CHARS

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Mark H said:
Chill out Freddy-

I was merely suggesting a way to keep the registration on Smokes or Red cattle nothing more.  I have issues with most of the Black Charolais bulls I have seen but they are improving.  I have seen worse black Maines used as herd sires.  The best way to let people know about the registration requirements is to refer them to the AICA to make sure.  In my experience: From a show point of view red and black Charolais likely will not qualify for purebred shows in the U.S.  The way around that?  Have shows for non traditionally marked purebreds.  The general rule is that bulls must be 3/4 blood or greater to be recorded and females 1/2 blood or greater.  If you use a recorded percentage bull on recorded percentage cows the lowest percentage of either parent is assigned to the calf.  A purebred animal doesn't have to be concerned with these restrictions hence my post.
I had some red factor cattle.  They are just as easy to market and in fact some buyers want red bulls.  For a bull that would fit into any program look at HEJ Ripped a very complete bull that puts out show quality cattle.
a show for non traditional marked purebreds will never fly in the states,,,it was like pulling teeth to get it passed for light cream Q cattle to show,,,,we tried to get a open composite show,,,we couldn't even get that out of our committee
 

Freddy

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I THINK THAT is real good thinking on the part of AICA ,UNTIL SOME OF THE COMPOSITE  BREEDERS TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for having papers on these sires,forcing these semen comapanys to be responsible in theeir business ...They print registration numbers right  beside all the angus ,hereford,charolais  and etc. in most books ...There are kids raised in NE. and have  double composite bred heifers that can't show this year because the the owners and breeders have not stepped forward and spent 50.00 or there abouts to register  these high sales semen bulls ....NOW to me something isn't llining up right ,cost them a couple of units of semen to register the bull ,or lose  selling a lot of semen to a bull when people start figuring out which ones are not registered ....

CONTACTED the AICA  AND THE secretary thought she could have list of composite sires in a couple weeks ,so if this interests you in any way you might register your CHAROLAIS COMPOSITE bull next week ...
 

HF CHARS

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Only problem with papering composite bulls is,,,as breeders we still need to make sure kids know,Jr nationals rules say ,composite females must be out of PUREBRED cows or bulls,,,,and we need to make sure we are not selling half bloods that are out of two composites,and let people think they can show them,,,,,this is one of the reasons more composites are not shown
 

veritas

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Freddy,

As for composite bulls, I'd like to mention the bull I raised and own with Matt Lautner.  Nutter Butter is a halfblood TH free/PHA clear Monopoly son out of my lead donor that raised the Faber Heatwave donor and champion Chantel.  This young bull hasn't created a buzz becuase he was a fallborn and never was displayed.  His other problem was his fertility. . .  he was too fertile and froze his 1000 units of semen in a couple weeks so he didn't hang around Hawkeye for everyone to see.  Everyone that has seen him is impressed.  His hair quality is excellent and he is massive boned with slick shearing muscle but haired is even better.  He is a neat option on carrier females and one of his best traits is his moderate frame size.  He is a stout dude and will downsize PB char cows.  He will never sire a rattail on PB chars either.  Contact Matt Lautner for semen.  His mom is deadly consistent.  I have 2 springborn Monopoly full sibs that compare well with anything I've seen pictured or shown lately.

DNA typing of all composites should be considered.  The showring has its share of "composite" cattle with a single composite parent that may or may not be registered but because they are born creme or smoky, they have a set of papers.  These composites are good cattle and what the South has known for years is beginning to gain acceptance here in the Midwest more and more.

Alan McDaniel
515-979-1894
 

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HF CHARS

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I would recommend that you as breeders of composites come to the fall board meetings,,I think the AICA is missing a real opportunity with these composite cattle,,they have great merritt in the industry,,,but as a association we shun them,,don't offer open shows,and make it difficult for breeders that are utilizing the char genetics for something other than purebred ,
 

Freddy

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HF CHARS , i DIDN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND  you or misunderstood the association ,I took it that a registerd Charolais composite  bull  X A registered Charolais composite female the calf could be a registered composite  animal ....  If this is not possible it's a waste of everyone's time ........period
 

veritas

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When the Composite division was created, initially only animals with one purebred parent were allowed, limiting its usefulness.  That has been changed a couple years ago and now composite to composite matings are allowed as long as 50% Charolais is maintained. 
 

Freddy

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VERITAS -THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP ,I think what happened if I recall correctly is they put in composite heifer first and then added the coposite bull where you could continue raising basically half blood Charolais cattle .I remember 55 years years ago when family had basically Hereford  cows and the half -3/4 blood cows were some of the very best made ,quite a change from the Herefords at that time ....Very much impressed with your NUTTER BUTTER bull and think he will definitely be an assett to the Composite program,I think the Charolais composite is a key to raising less THC & PHAC  cattle in this business with just as much natural muscling ....
 

Mark H

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Veritas,

Any percentage  bull recorded in the Charolais herdbook has to be minimum 3/4 Charolais.  Check out the rules on this:  http://www.charolaisusa.com/rules.html
When dealing with the AICA or any other major breed association remember it is ran by breeders that want to sell purebreds, particularly bulls, and not percentage cattle.  For the European  breeds the grading up process was done long ago.  If you what to change the rules you must be prepared to show them that:
1.  Having shows for non traditionally marked Charolais will benefit the breed and will not reduce the value of  the color "stamp" a traditional  Charolais bull will put on a calf (not confuse people).
2.  How will this increase the market value for their  white bulls and potential markets denied to them (Canadian and Australian examples).
If you can't do these two things I don't like the odds.  In Canada red factor cattle were produced as a way for some breeders to differentiate their product from other breeders cattle in a well established breed.  In the United States this is not the case as the Charolais has no where near the market acceptance enjoyed in Canada so the white color is an important part of the breeds identity.
 
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