Breeding up from the Bottom (side)

Help Support Steer Planet:

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
I think there is quite a lot of misunderstanding as to what having a “maternal” herd means. Too many of us strive to have one type of bovine that “does it all”. All breeds have an abundance of practitioners of this philosophy. If you are so afflicted, most likely nothing you read here will matter.

Since the author of these thoughts is smack dab in the middle of his 7th earthly decade, and he constitutes the one-man crew responsible for irrigating, haying, feeding, calving, etc., simplification of the operation became a necessity. Especially as the kids embarked to get a good education that will allow them to “ranch in style” should they someday decide to return to their roots?

I’ve never been the sharpest knife in the drawer, however- I do possess a certain affinity with mules. This trait has served me well in building a herd of Commercial type Registered Shorthorns. It’s taken a lot of trial and error. It’s taken a lot of time learning to “see” rather than merely “look”. This has been especially true for me when it comes to the bull type most likely to produce really good females. I will post pictures of our herd bull type as yearlings and as mature bulls later.

I won’t repeat the story of the old Shorthorn cow my folks acquired when I was a kid, but she is the reason I decided on this breed some 20 plus years ago. That and the fact that I wanted to prove that good cattle can still be found outside “The Business Breed”.  So, with great expectations I set out to build a herd of the type I remembered as a kid.

I would buy a group of nice looking heifers, only to have them develop into generally nice looking cows that seemed to want to put more effort into their own well-being than that of their calf. Few met my expectations when it came to possessing the qualities for commercial type cattle production.  In the West, much of the land is unfit for the plow, so it’s up to the cow.

In a lot of the country, a “commercial” type bovine must be have strong, sound, feet/legs, as it can be a ways between a water hole and the next blade of grass. She has to have a quality udder with small enough teats for a calf to find on its own. She must give birth unattended. She needs strong maternal instinct; her slimy, wet, new baby is the most important thing in her life and will remain so for the next 7 months. She must be able to produce enough milk under often time’s marginal conditions to wean a good calf. Most importantly, she must be very fertile.  AND-- it’s a huge plus when a range cow has the ability to discern the difference between a coyote and a human being when it comes to weighing, tagging, and tattooing her newborn. In general, docility is common in this breed and is certainly a favorable trait to have built in. I’m certain that I no longer have the physique or the inclination to engage in serious foot races.

Here is a link to a video showing a random view of a decent portion of the cows. I took this with my iPhone 3 days after hauling the calves’ home. These girls range in age from 2 to 12 years. I'm very pleased to say that you won't find an unacceptable udder in the bunch. You can't tell in the video, but there are no bad feet either.

https://youtu.be/QQbfYDoUVJU

As pictured these cows are on hay stubble pasture, where they’re allowed to graze the regrowth. I’ve leased this place for grazing for the past several years and it’s been good. The cattle are on mostly native type range for the majority of the summer. After the haying season, they’re run on the stubble to graze the regrowth until weaning. The calves really “boom”, and then the cows go back on the native pasture a few days after weaning.  It’s been a great proving ground for how properly selected Shorthorns can perform under conditions that are comparable to most beef operations in this part of the world.

Unfortunately at this point, the 50+ year old fences are falling down. Much of this is due to age. However, a  herd of much darker complexioned cows next door have a real desire to sample feed across the fence. The landowner wants me to replace these fences without granting a long term lease or adjusting the annual price of the grazing to do so. A 10 year lease would make it a viable option, but they don’t see it my way and I don’t see it theirs.

 

kiblercattle

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
380
Very nice set of cows. What would you say the avg weight of that set of cows is? I really like the solid Red Bull in the video that mark added the link to. I have been to Missoula 3 times in the last two years and every time I am there I think about running down and having a look at your cattle but can't seem to find the time. I think it's going to be a must in the near future to do so.
 

idalee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
188
Your comments on what makes "maternal" are right on target!  How many of the cows in the video are "Easy" daughters?    Best thing I ever did was to buy our "Easy" son from you.  His daughters epitomize "Maternal"!    Thanks.
 

GM

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Messages
248
Location
Indiana
mark tenenbaum said:
I dont blame you a bit-let em fall down and see which cows get there first IS THIS YOUR BULL?-HES REALLY SOMETHING-COMMERCIAL WISE  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDejW5AK0Zw

Based on some of the other videos it looks like a bull named YY Ballantine Leader 429B who was born in 2014.  Speaking of maternal, based on his pedigree he's by CCL 6th who's sire, Kinnabar Leader 6th, was born in 1965, and he's out of a Dover daughter who's out of a Lucky Clover Rambo daughter, who's out of a Diamond Canadian cow.  There's a lot of good maternal breeding stacked in there, and I didn't study closely but I'm guessing there is no Chi or Maine (outside of a few prefixes prone to rumors).
 

Medium Rare

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
459
Location
Missouri
mark tenenbaum said:
I dont blame you a bit-let em fall down and see which cows get there first IS THIS YOUR BULL?-HES REALLY SOMETHING-COMMERCIAL WISE  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDejW5AK0Zw

I noticed him as well. Then stumbled into a pedigree he sired, YY Dutton Baron 638D, and couldn't help but wonder how that turned out. To be that concentrated and ratio out like he did.  <rock>
 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Thanks for the comments. I’ll try to answer some replies as I go along.

I’m not the most computer savvy guy in the world, so it takes me awhile to figure out how to do things.

Before I go any further, I just want to make clear that I don’t believe that I am exclusive in the goal of producing the type Shorthorn that fits into the Commercial Beef Industry. It’s just that it is not as common as it should be if we are ever going to regain serious consideration as a breed. It’s becoming a forgotten fact that some of the most popular breeds have roots that came from Shorthorns. It’s very evident when you read the old cattle history books. I also have firsthand knowledge of a breeder who successfully markets composite solid red Range Bulls and he can’t keep up with demand for his replacement heifers. One half of this composite gets accolades, the other half remains anonymous!

Some of you guys are too fast for me to keep up with. This next set of pictures will be some of the Major Maternal players we've used in making progress.  Some are prettier than others, all did (or are still doing) their job extremely well here. Beauty is as beauty does!

This is Diamond Baroness 21J. She became a U.S. citizen in the fall of 1999, I believe. The majority of our herd carries her in their pedigree at least once.
DSC_0160 copy by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

We'd had a herd visit when the Association still did that. They called me up from, Colfax, WA the next day and said "Ralph, Jim and Jayne Lyman are dispersing their Shorthorns. There is a cow here you definitely need to buy". It was sound advice!

This is HHFS Impossible Dream. She is the dam of Coalpit Creek Leader 6th and is the main reason I bought him.
imp dream by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

The other reason being that I'd begun to wonder why my "modern" Shorthorns sure weren't what I remembered from my youth and I wanted to try some genetics from that era. I'm glad I did.

I'll have to do some digging for pictures, but a lot of the Maternal progress we've made is due to some females we purchased from

01d5f2c91ab0e0415b3790d00fa753eb by Ralph Larson, on Flickr
 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Dover Sindelar was probably the most honest and astute cattleman I've known, and I feel blessed to have gotten to know him pretty well. He was a tough old Buzzard and didn't let the fact that he was well over 80 years old slow him down. He still put in very long and full days pretty much up to the end. The first time I met him, he gave us a tour of the cows. I remember that I wondered what in the heck those cows with their fat calves were living on! The only green on the place was a couple coulee's that had little patches of Cheatgrass that had been grazed to ground level. The rest of the grass was dried up grazed over native bunch grass and there was not an abundance of that. I had come down to buy a bull. They were in the corrals, so after the cow tour we went to look. I hope the look on my face didn't betray what I was feeling, but after seeing the cows, the bull calves were pretty disappointing to my untrained eye. That's when I started to question whether I really knew anything about maternal cattle and the type bull to produce them.

I finally settled on the deepest bodied calf in the pen. He didn't have a lot of "thickness" to him, but when Dover commented that "the best cow he ever raised" was this calf's grand dam on both sides, I decided to try him. "Performance" was still pretty high on my list and the fact that he had the top weaning ratio out of 50 bulls including some by well known Red Angus sires at the time, clinched the deal.
That is how I aquired DRC 101VM (Dover). He is also in most of our pedigrees and I have a coming 2 year old son I will use next spring. He sure resembles his old man!

For my own curiosity, I'd sure like to know what his old grand dam looked like! Judging from the rest of their cattle, I'm sure she was good.

The last time I saw Mr. Sindelar, was a couple years ago. I think the loss of his son Frank pretty much did him in. He was housebound at the time I visited. We had a good visit, but his memory was failing. When I left, he insisted on walking me out to the car in his walker. I sensed that would be the last time I would see him. I get a little emotional even now. He was one of the good ones.
 

WinterSpringsFarm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
361
Thank you RedBulls for sharing your adventures and I hope you plan to share more. I love reading about how people got to where they are today.

What you are doing is what every good cow man should be doing. The feet and legs, mobility, udder, disposition, easy fleshing, and the ability to raise a whopper calf every year is what we all want and its easy to know that. It's finding/knkwing the genetics with the ability to do it time and time again, now that's the hard part. And that's where a true cow man will shine!
 

nf

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
4
I've been a long time reader but never before joined in.  It is only fitting that a post started by RedBulls pushed me to participate.  You see, I have the pleasure of owning YY Dutton Baron 638D mentioned above and can attest, so far, to his wonderful fitness and functionality as a breeding animal.  We won't know about his calves until next year, and won't really know what type of bull he is until we have many daughters in production.  But this is the story of how he's done so far which is only a representation of what RedBulls stands for. 

To my knowledge, 638D has never tasted corn in his life.  He was raised by a first calf heifer on native range, weaned onto hay stubble, and overwintered on free choice hay and a few pounds of wheat mids for a couple of months in the middle of winter.  When he arrived here in Ohio in April 2017 we gave him free choice 2nd cut grass/clover hay, 5 pounds of whole oats for 2 weeks, and a good back scratch per RedBulls instructions.  Even with a buddy in the paddock he proceeded to patrol countless miles and dig a rut a ditch digger would be proud of looking for a date.  Since then it's been only pasture. 

On June 22 638D was turned out with 37 cows weighing in at 1080lbs at just under a 5 frame.  A few days prior to turnout we did timed AI on 17 of the cows.  I was concerned it would be too many cows and if the results of ai weren't strong they would be too concentrated in time for him to do the job as a yearling.  For all my consternation and concern, RedBulls couldn't understand my worry and assured me he'd be fine.

With palpation results in hand... I have 33 of 37 cows bred in the first 21 days!  The 4 cows that didn't make it all bred in the next cycle.  Btw, I think I'll go ahead and cull those.  Further, 638D now weighs in at just under 1,400 lbs.  He actually gained more during the breeding season out with cows than he did before.  I believe it was from all of the miles he walked waiting to get with his harem.  I truly only saw him eat a few times.  It was just non-stop pacing.

I state this as testament to how I've seen RedBulls genetics and management work for me.  And I leave you all with a question to ponder.  Would shorthorns gain market share as a breed if they all FUNCTIONED like this irrespective of how they looked, OR, if they all LOOKED like the top show winners regardless of how they functioned?
 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Thanks Winter Springs
Dang it! I just had more pictures and comments all typed and ready, but I guess I'd "timed out". When I hit Preview, everything disappeared! Still on a learning curve with this stuff. I'm fortunate in that I have the learned the ability to glean valuable lessons from my mistakes.

I don't have a good example of "Dover" (DRC 101VM) before and after photos, as honestly, I still didn't know what a good "maternal type" calf should look like.  I do have a picture of a son while still on his dam. We used this bull (1 year old) on 10 cows this spring to have a small progeny test. I will also take a picture of this long yearling today. He's coming along and will get better with age. Sometimes, I think I should market these "maternal" bulls as two's, as these concepts can be difficult to wrap ones head around when looking at calves.

This is 603D on his dam 421B late summer 2016

DSC_0110 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr



This is his sire DRC 101VM at two years

DSC_0299 copy by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

This is him at full maturity

DSC_0208 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

I just ran across this picture of 421B that I took shortly after the cows came off the native pasture to the hay stubble. This is her 2017 heifer calf sired by our 429B bull. I guess you could say she "gets by with a little help from her friends"

DSC_0352 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr
 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Darn it NF. You humble me. You are correct in that 638D calf has never had corn in his life. I'm just glad you allowed me to keep an in-herd semen interest.

Running way late on chores this morning, but will post more pictures when I'm back in.
 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Getting back to the "foundation" dams

This is DRC7119KL. My daughter nicknamed her "Eloise" so most females going back to her have the name Eloise on their registration papers. We bought her out of the DRC cull pen in the fall of 2011 . She was 14 years of age at the time. Dover practiced strict culling of cows at 10 years of age, mostly due to the fact that by 10 years grazing in that country their teeth are gone. It was highly unusual, but Dover let this one stay. When purchased, she was in calf to one of there 3/4 SH x 1/4 RA bulls. That daughter has become a really good cow at a neighbors place. We flushed her to DRC 101VM  after calving and got 5 good eggs. We then AI'd her to "Dover" for a natural calf but she didn't take, and was bred natural service to 186Y (a mostly DRC breeding). Her resulting 294A son is nursing in this photo. We put in two eggs and got 2 good heifer calves. One is here and 441B resides in Indiana. That ones EPD's really took a jump for the new owner.

DSC_0203 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

This is her son 294A from around the first of September this year.

DSC_0303 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

This is him again that same day from the rear. Without seeing the ear tags, I can't be sure if these are his bull calves or 429B's

DSC_0304 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

This is the sire of YY Adam 294A at a year of age. His tattoo was 186Y.

DSC_0203 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
In case you missed the link to the video that Mark posted, this is a picture of the 429B bull from about a month ago.

IMG_0944_edited-1 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

This next picture was taken of him when he was part of our group at the Nancy M. Cummings (U of Idaho) Research Center near Salmon, ID. The data gathered from him there intrigued me, even though he wasn't impressive to look at.

DSC_0778 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

He had just been clipped and singed the day before I took this picture, which didn't help. Every time I visited the center to check on the bulls, he was patrolling the fence wanting to be out with the cows there, rather than eat. The bulls were fed using the Grow Safe System and Feed Efficiency is measured while on a high roughage diet. He was the second highest FE bull there, but didn't have impressive growth numbers. The highest FE bull was a black calf that didn't grow much at all. Our other bulls were pretty much middle of the road in the FE test overall.
He was scanned right about the time of this photo also. I did like what he did there as at 945 lbs. he had a 12.30 inch REA (actual) His IMF was very good at 5.02 actual. If you look at his EPD's, he barely registers on the horizontal line for REA and is almost off for IMF.
If you use REA/CWT based on his scan weight, it figures to 1.3 inches/hundred. Anything over 1 inch/CWT is acceptable. I have argued with the ASA about this. To me, what it does is reward breeders for raising bigger cattle instead of leveling the scale across the board.

Can anyone explain why it's done this way?

Another question I have is that as purebred breeders, when we chase the growth in our cattle so much, might we actually selecting for bulls who would rather eat than make love? By neglecting the secondary characteristics of bulls (masculine curly facial/head hair, neck hump, libido, etc.) mightn't we be lessening the femininity of our females and lessening their fertility also? I don't really see this as a problem in our Shorthorn breed at this point, but it is something to think about when according to some beef publications the average life span in the U.S. is 6 years for a brood cow. I watched some judging at the NILE this year. Their were 30 head in the class and they placed 3. The judge commented on the Power of these 3 females. Is "Power" a good thing for a successful brood cow?

This is a picture from this past spring of NF's 638D bull (poop and all) who is sired by our 429B bull above.

DSC_0066 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

This is a picture of Diamond Baroness 21J with this bulls new born grand dam (203Z) in 2012

DSC_0336 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr
This old gal had a strong maternal instinct. She never "went nuts" like some cows I've been around, but I always made sure I had a stick handy when tending her newborns! She always knew where her calf was all the way to weaning.

This is 203Z this fall. Sometimes I do a double take as I think she's 21J in her younger days when I glance at her.

IMG_0953 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr
IMG_0956 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

I mated the above cow back to her sire. The result was 403B who is the dam of NF's bull. I couldn't find a picture of her. She is developing much like her dam and grand dam, but will mature into a cow more the body type of HHFS Impossible Dream, which is not surprising!

Close breeding was used extensively when breeds were being developed but has been almost taboo in recent years. Anyway, I see it as a useful way to fix (hold in place) good traits rather than randomly mate and create problems that you have to fix (repair).








 

CAB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
5,607
Location
Corning,Iowa
Thanks for sharing RedBulls. I really like your cattle!! Deep!!
I ran into a Barzona breeder this week and came home and did a quick history research of the breed. Very interesting in that the breed was developed from the bottom side. SH breed involved along with other breeds including Africana. Fun read also.
 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Thanks CAB, yes supposedly there are 40 breeds of cattle that have Shorthorn in their origins.

I went up to the lease to check the cows today. With these cell phones, I'm always armed with a camera so took a few more pictures to show NF the sire of his 638D bulls (429B) female side of his pedigree.


This is Y82S. She is your 638D bulls paternal great grandma. She'll be 12 in the spring.
IMG_1013 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr


130W is your bulls grand dam. Her daughter, 171Y is the full sib sister of your bulls sire (429B). This photo op was the reason I dug the phone out today. I thought the mother/daughter combo was pretty cool!

IMG_1003 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

The cows sure have fleshed up since weaning!

This is 403B. Your bulls young dam. Her dam is a maternal half sister to the old cow at the top.

IMG_1019 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

It's a pretty incestuous combination, but I sure think you'll be pleased with the tightly wound good maternal genetics that are programed into your bull! As you can tell, it was spitting a little snow again today, but temp wasn't bad at 38 degrees.








 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
IMG_0881 by Ralph Larson, on Flickr

Just an example of steers from a "maternally" focused herd. This was taken in mid-to late October. They came straight home off the cows onto pasture and supplemented with salt/mineral only. Weaning date was 9/9/2017.They never had a bite of any kind of grain period. They were sold at the Feeder Sale  at the Montana Livestock Auction near Butte. There were 22 head. Average weight was 621 lbs and they brought just over $150/CWT. There were 8 head of these that were banded soon after weaning. They still looked a bit "staggy". I'm sure was taken into account by the buyers. Some had a bit of white markings, but the majority were solid red. They were all  a minimum of 98% Shorthorn. These steers are all from 294A and 429B .



 

RedBulls

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
134
Location
Montana
Mark, The "heifer bulls" that I have saleable semen on at present are Dover and CPCL 6th. I would also breed any of my heifers to 294A or 429B.
I also plan on collecting them for home use only at this point. As I'm sure you know, if one looks at the phenotype of newborns from true "calving ease" sires who haven't been phenotypically modified from what "nature" produces in order to satisfy the "eye of man", one does not necessarily need to seek out sires who only produce 60-70 lb. BW's.

English Bulldogs are one of my favorite pet breeds to look at. However, I think most would have to agree that man has greatly modified the phenotype from their wolf ancestors. The few bulldogs I've been around are very affable dogs. I'm fascinated by their looks and personality. I often thought I'd like to own one until I looked into the breed more closely. There is a reason that a very high percentage of them cannot deliver or raise pups on their own. As one who is very concerned about the welfare of the animals under my care, it is safe to assume that I will never purchase a bulldog.

If you'd like to discuss bulls (rather than bulldogs), PM me or feel free to call me at 406-360-3793.
 
Top