British Breed Origin Map

Helps me put all this breed wrangling in perspective
http://britannicrarebreeds.co.uk/breedoriginmaps.php

I noticed that there was a South Devon breed. And a North Devon breed.......kinda interesting.

I always thought the LUING was a north American breed.

North Devons is also called Ruby Devon or only Devon. Huge herds in Brazil.
South Devon is a Gelbvieh, Rubia Gallega infusioned british breed, select for double muscle on late 70's. Before it was a big double purpose like breed. Some bulls reach to 1600 kg.
Luing is an Scottish breed, originated from Highland cows cross Shorthorn bulls. A primary cow-suckler cross from Scotland. Is a stablished breed since 50's.

There are so many breeds in Great Britain, cattle were introduced at different points over time so you find references to some of the predecessors of Shorthorn cattle coming from Dutch importations. Since there were no "herdbooks" or purebred cattle there was probably a reasonable amount of mixing between all the different strains.
Some estates kept various strains for decades and they probably through selection evolved traits and characteristics that suited their owners. In the Shorthorn breed some of the famous foundation stock were rumoured to have infusions of other breeds. An example would be the bull Hubback (319) that at one time was claimed to have Kyloe (West Highland) blood on his dam's side. Hubback appears multiple times in almost all early herd book pedigrees that trace to the Colling brothers' herds. He and his dam ran in the Village lanes but it was recorded he was the result of a planned mating to Snowdon's Bull (612). Many of the foundation animals were selected at the local markets and could have an infusion of blood from other strains of cattle. I don't see how DNA samples could ever be found that cover off all the original genetics in the foundation stock. Possibly where some famous bulls like Comet were buried and marked by a monument there might be DNA available but even that is unlikely. Hubback was born in 1777 and the book Short-horn Cattle I am getting this info from was not written until 1918. An interesting point is that Hubback was a yellow red with white marks, not a popular colour today. Of course we see colour change occurring in breeds today, we just have to look how many red breeds have become predominately black.

Some more info on Hubback (319)
Sorry the files are on their side, I'm not sure how to rotate them!

That map does not include scotch Shorthorns, which would appear right above Aberdeen Angus.
I think Sittydon was in Banff, must next to Aberdeen.
If Scottish cattle were driven to Norfolk and Suffolk to fatten, and the steers sold well, it only makes sense to put a northern cross into the Shorthorns to come up with a larger animal that met the market demands.
My reading is that the pioneering improved Shorthorn breeders had a lot of imagination and tried different crosses ask the time to come up with useful market animals. They were not up tight about pedigrees as much as the second wave of pure blood live stock marketers were.
Pure Collins might not be pure Shorthorn, but the Collins strain was superior for the market.
I really think a lot of this obsession with purity comes from deep seated English insecurity about the vigor, fertility and prepotency of the Scottish. (cattle, I mean, smile)

librarian said:

That map does not include scotch Shorthorns, which would appear right above Aberdeen Angus.
I think Sittydon was in Banff, must next to Aberdeen.
If Scottish cattle were driven to Norfolk and Suffolk to fatten, and the steers sold well, it only makes sense to put a northern cross into the Shorthorns to come up with a larger animal that met the market demands.
My reading is that the pioneering improved Shorthorn breeders had a lot of imagination and tried different crosses ask the time to come up with useful market animals. They were not up tight about pedigrees as much as the second wave of pure blood live stock marketers were.
Pure Collins might not be pure Shorthorn, but the Collins strain was superior for the market.
I really think a lot of this obsession with purity comes from deep seated English insecurity about the vigor, fertility and prepotency of the Scottish. (cattle, I mean, smile)

Click to expand...

Don't forget that Amos and Anthony Cruickshank drew heavily from all across England and Scotland for their seedstock. They even introduced some Bates bred cows to the herd as well as many bulls from Booth bloodlines. The final results of Amos Cruickshanks breeding were probably smaller framed than most Booth cattle but were very easy keeping and finished more quickly.

Sinclair tells about Cruickshank looking all over for cattle he liked. He struck gold in Nottingham.
I think that's down in the SE end of England...I was trying to relate that to the msp the other day
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924080031044#page/n11/mode/2up

Really have to go move snow....

librarian said:

Sinclair tells about Cruickshank looking all over for cattle he liked. He struck gold in Nottingham.
I think that's down in the SE end of England...I was trying to relate that to the msp the other day
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924080031044#page/n11/mode/2up

Really have to go move snow....

Click to expand...

The major change in the program was Lancaster Comet (11663) through his son Champion of England (17526) and the subsequent line breeding to Champion of England. Lancaster Comet came from Wilkinson of Lenton, Nottinghamshire in 1858 and the village of Lenton became part of Nottingham in 1877. Only a dozen calves were got by Lancaster Comet at Cruickshanks but Comet was 8 years old when he arrived there.

The lack of a pedigree of the Irish Shorthorns is often mentioned on this site.  Didn't the Shannon herd trace back to the Herdbook?  It seems as though some Shannon bred cattle came over, Shannon Magnificient, Shannon Music, Shannon Margie, maybe others and I read somewhere that maybe they were among some Irish herds that had more of an ancestry than "Foundation."  More research....

L

oakview said:

The lack of a pedigree of the Irish Shorthorns is often mentioned on this site.  Didn't the Shannon herd trace back to the Herdbook?  It seems as though some Shannon bred cattle came over, Shannon Magnificient, Shannon Music, Shannon Margie, maybe others and I read somewhere that maybe they were among some Irish herds that had more of an ancestry than "Foundation."  More research....

Click to expand...

The Shannon cattle were allowed in the Canadian Herdbook earlier than the Deerpark/ Highfield cattle as they had pedigrees. I believe they were dual or milking bloodlines.

John Wilkinson and Will Honeycomb 5660 are like unsung Shorthorn heroes.
This link goes to the description of Will Honeycomb in Sinclair's history. I'd my favorite Shorthorn story because of the emotional reaction of Amos Cruickshank to the cattle he saw at Lenton. He was a pretty solemn guy otherwise.
The story starts at the very bottom of the preceding page to this link.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924080031044#page/n245/mode/1up

Please turn a little about Shannon Margie? What was she like?

After reading an old thread about best Shorthorn cow families,I see that the original Shannon Margie might be lost in the mists of time...I thought she was one famous cow.

What is interesting to me about the location of Nottinghamshire is its proximity to the Lincoln Reds and Longhorns on the breed map. Bakewell must have had a big influence on the local thinking.
The past about Amos Cruickshank getting emotional must have been in another book, maybe his letters. The story was that he was so overcome with feeling that his hand was trembling when he sat down and tried to make notes on his trip to Lenton.
Can't you just see him sitting beside the lamp at his solitary desk, trying to steady his hand?
(don't laugh)

Was researching the Luing the picture is so cool, I would like to have it blown up and framed. That group of shorthorn cross bulls look amazing. Stout masculine. etc.

The Luing breed was famously evolved by the Cadzow brothers on the Island of Luing in Argyll off the west coast of Scotland. Admiring the outstanding complementary qualities of two great beef breeds – the Beef Shorthorn with its fleshing qualities and the Highlander with its ruggedness and hardiness, in 1947 they selected some of the best first cross Shorthorn/Highland heifers that could be procured . These heifers were bred to the Shorthorn bull Cruggleton Alastair. Two sons of this breeding were kept and mated to their half sisters: Luing Mist in 1952 and Luing Oxo in 1953. From then on, by following up this in-breeding with line-breeding, the Luing breed was firmly established and with many generations sired by Luing bulls, they proved themselves as breeding true to type. The British Government officially recognised the Luing as a breed in its own right in 1965.

When I look at the horns on those Luing cattle, I always think of the story about Amos Cruickshank, upon unloading the bull at the railway station in Scotland, being disappointed in Lancaster Comet because of his large horns. A know it all (I will not honor him by naming him on the world wide web) said to Cruickshank, "you might have got a Highland bull closer to home without going to England to get him".
It's all here in Robert Bruce's description of Champion of England.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wdXbAAAAMAAJ&dq=champion%20of%20england%20dam&pg=PA37#v=onepage&q=champion%20of%20england%20dam&f=false

I can't believe these Scotch Shorthorns were much like the "ponies" of later days.

There are still a lot of Shannon Margie descendants around.  You'll find some in most sales and many, many herds across the states have some.  Several national champions came from the Margie line.  AF Shannon Margie 924 would probably be the most famous.  We saw her in Denver as a calf, I think she was a May baby, and she was extremely impressive.  She became a National Champion as a yearling.  I believe she was a daughter of Duke of Swisher, a full Dual Purpose bull sired by Foxdale Favorite Robin, and out of Shannon Margie.  Duke of Swisher was bred by the Jones Family of Washington, Iowa, and sold in dam to Kay and Kevin Lamparek of Swisher, Iowa.  He won several shows and was purchased by Alden Farms in the Denver Sale.  I had a half brother, Justamere Todd, that I purchased from the Jones Family.  He was Champion at the Iowa and Minnesota State Fairs, Senior Champion at Chicago, and Reserve Senior Champion at Denver.  He showed as a senior yearling and Duke showed as a summer yearling that year.  (1975)  Your best source of information on the Margie line would probably be Robert or Ron Alden of Hamilton, Missouri.  They owned the cow.