Building a Herd

One thing to consider as well as all posts above is "what do you have for natural resources for your cattle herd"?  If you have 10 acres of Indiana fescue then you can figure on have 8 to 10 cows.  If you are in Montana and have 1000 acres of grass, then you know what you can hold.  If you can house less than 15 cows, then I would suggest looking at the flush/recip option.  If you are in the areas where pasture is prevelant, and can      get your hands on grass, then take the "low cost" cow road.  That is what we have done.  We started with 10 cows on 80 rented acres, found more grass, bought more cows, and expanded.  Now we are in a position to flush cows, take the added expenses and spread them across the other 50 cows.  We also have the ability to use our own cows for recips, and either keep/sell the ET's and/or sell the calves from the recips that didn't take the egg.  There are a heck of a bunch of expenses that always get swept under the table.  When you expand cows, you also expand costs for bunks, tanks, gates, fence, acreage to buy/rent/lease.  Adding balers/swathers/hay trailers/bigger stock trailer/another pasture wagon to check cows/4 wheelers/buying more hay/feed/etc always goes along with expansion to keep your time spent taking care of cows to a minimum.  Start putting a pencil to all of this as it will also creep up on you.

GONEWEST said:

I believe that it can, has and will continue to be done, but not many people are as smart as Chambero and able to find high quality cattle for $1500. If they were, no one would ever pay a high price for a cow or heifer, they'd just buy the cheap ones. IN GENERAL, there is no way the average $1500 bred heifer will ever be able to consistently produce the quality that a TRUE donor cow will produce. So you can go your whole life and never have the quality it takes to compete trying that.

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This is exactly right.  We went to several breeders and sales looking for that good cow that would cost a little less.  We would raise some marketable calves, every couple of years hit it right and raise a great one.  Then we decided to go out and spend some money on a 5 year old donor quality cow, we've raised more great ones in two years than we did the first 10 years hunting for 'bargains'. 

I think you can find the good ones for 15-2000 if you look hard and try to buy something that will make a good commercial cow even if she doesn't end up raising a club calf.  About the best place to try and find them is when purebred breeders are having dispersions.  The older (6-10yr olds) usually don't bring much compared to the younger more hyped sale features and usually if they are around after being 8 yrs old its because they raise a decent calf every year.  You would be surprised what some of those older purebred cows can raise if they are bred clubby once.  Some won't click, but there a lot of high dollar show heifers that never raise anything and end up being a recip or just going to kill.  Also if those cows you buy just aren't made to raise clubbys they usually make good recips if you ever buy some eggs...

Buying a 10k cow just starting out is putting too many eggs in one basket if you ask me.  You can try and partner on a good cow with someone you know and get along with.  It usually works best if you own two cows together and one party feeds one and the other party feeds the other.  I know quite a few guys that do this and then swap eggs back and forth.

jrg said:

GONEWEST said:

I believe that it can, has and will continue to be done, but not many people are as smart as Chambero and able to find high quality cattle for $1500. If they were, no one would ever pay a high price for a cow or heifer, they'd just buy the cheap ones. IN GENERAL, there is no way the average $1500 bred heifer will ever be able to consistently produce the quality that a TRUE donor cow will produce. So you can go your whole life and never have the quality it takes to compete trying that.

Click to expand...

This is exactly right.  We went to several breeders and sales looking for that good cow that would cost a little less.  We would raise some marketable calves, every couple of years hit it right and raise a great one.  Then we decided to go out and spend some money on a 5 year old donor quality cow, we've raised more great ones in two years than we did the first 10 years hunting for 'bargains'. 

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I don't disagree with either of you, but did you know enough starting out to know how to wisely spend the money it takes to buy the right, true donor cow?  I sure didn't and am still scared of rolling those high stakes dice.  And you've got to have something to put those embryos in some day.  I haven't ever known anyone that successfully started out "full throttle" by buying a real expensive cow and then making money on her.  Most of the ones that I know who've tried it that way from the onset have lost their tails.  Folks usually have to go through some learning pains on how to manage and take care of cows, learning what works/what doesn't, etc.  I just believe its better for most people to get started with good cows vs. hoping you hit on one great one. 

When we started out, flushing wasn't nearly as prevalent and heavily marketed as it is now - at least in our area.

You do figure out in a hurry which cows can produce really good calves and which ones you are wasting your time with.  But to a certain extent its still a numbers game also.

chambero said:

jrg said:

GONEWEST said:

I believe that it can, has and will continue to be done, but not many people are as smart as Chambero and able to find high quality cattle for $1500. If they were, no one would ever pay a high price for a cow or heifer, they'd just buy the cheap ones. IN GENERAL, there is no way the average $1500 bred heifer will ever be able to consistently produce the quality that a TRUE donor cow will produce. So you can go your whole life and never have the quality it takes to compete trying that.

Click to expand...

This is exactly right.  We went to several breeders and sales looking for that good cow that would cost a little less.  We would raise some marketable calves, every couple of years hit it right and raise a great one.  Then we decided to go out and spend some money on a 5 year old donor quality cow, we've raised more great ones in two years than we did the first 10 years hunting for 'bargains'. 

Click to expand...

I don't disagree with either of you, but did you know enough starting out to know how to wisely spend the money it takes to buy the right, true donor cow?  I sure didn't and am still scared of rolling those high stakes dice.  And you've got to have something to put those embryos in some day.  I haven't ever known anyone that successfully started out "full throttle" by buying a real expensive cow and then making money on her.  Most of the ones that I know who've tried it that way from the onset have lost their tails.  Folks usually have to go through some learning pains on how to manage and take care of cows, learning what works/what doesn't, etc.  I just believe its better for most people to get started with good cows vs. hoping you hit on one great one. 

When we started out, flushing wasn't nearly as prevalent and heavily marketed as it is now - at least in our area.

You do figure out in a hurry which cows can produce really good calves and which ones you are wasting your time with.  But to a certain extent its still a numbers game also.

Click to expand...

I have spent some money on my current herd, however this is my second go around.  We took about a five year break after I got out of college. 

When we started out the first time we made some pretty bad impulse purchases.  I didn't spend a bunch on them but I did spend enough.  It was just like you said Chambero...inexperience.  It took that first time seeing what doesn't work to find something that does work.  I bought four heifers and one cow and they all became recips for a purchase that I made with the help of a family friend and at the time a fairly well known judge. 

This time around I have spent some money and have had really good results with showing and producing marketable calves....but like I said before....I don't have any recips.

I remember buying a few females from George McCreary at Paw Paw Creek when we were beginning, it was about 10 years ago.  He told me it would take 15 years to get our cowherd where we wanted it.  I thought he was crazy at the time, but here we are 12 years into it and he was right on the money. 

jrg said:

I remember buying a few females from George McCreary at Paw Paw Creek when we were beginning, it was about 10 years ago.  He told me it would take 15 years to get our cowherd where we wanted it.  I thought he was crazy at the time, but here we are 12 years into it and he was right on the money. 

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Funny how them ol boys know what the heck they're talkin about, isn't it?

As i look back on my own experiences, I wish I would have done things differently...  I couldn't begin to count the thousands of dollars spent on "cheaper" show heifers who might make a cow...  Today I wish I would have gone out and spent the extra money on something proven, an old cow, or a real good bred heifer from a cow family...  I thought at the time what I was doing must be right, I mean seriously everyone is doing it!!  Today, I just wish I would have that money back, and I would have invested in differently...  From now on, I won't be buying at public auction, unless it is a dispersal, to many average to bad livestock go through the rings. 

For you, I would suggest buying a good old proven cow, They had to be good, or they wouldn't stay around that long..Wouldn't suggest buying 2 or 3 y.o., but something 4+.  THose are the ones who have given at least 2 good calves, and paid their rent for the year...  Go to dispersal sales, thats where the best gentics in a bargin are...