Bull Promotion- Controlled or UNcontrolled?

jbh · Jan 19, 2009

Hey Everyone.....Brad Hook here,

An earlier conversation that had to be pulled discussed an issue I'd like to reflect on. I'm directing this specifically at the consumer and have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENT aimed at anyone promoting a bull or bulls.

One of the main topics addressed was whether or not to keep as tight a hold on the reigns of the bull you're promoting, or open up the flood gates as far as they'll go in regards to what pictures and video the public has access to. Please do not mention any specific bulls or owners when posting your opinions......some are a little more sensitive than others.

The point I'd like to make in favor of control is....WE DID IT TO OURSELVES! What? How many times have you looked at a bull in person, in a video or in a photo, and instantly started trying to pick out everything wrong with him and then running your mouth or fingers on the keyboard?.......I have and so have you! Is this called an opinion, or is it called bashing? I guess it depends on the tone and wordage, but it sure made Adobe Photoshop a lot of money!

About Photoshop......the first time I was introduced to photoshop was when I had a professional non-cattle ad agent build Heat Seekers ad for us. He ONLY used it to clean dust particles off his body, as was a common practice back then. He wouldn't have known a good bull if it kicked him in the head......so don't think it was messed with anymore than that, and I didn't even own a computer until 1998! While there, I looked at my partner in dismay, and on the way home we discussed how this could eventually become a BIG problem if just anyone bought and learned how to use it. CALLED that one didn't we! Now, an out of hand, anything goes mentality has taken us to the point where you can't believe a thing you see without questioning what you're seeing.....ALL in the pursuit of the perfect animal that Joe Promoter wants Joe Public to fall in love with and make thousands of dollars in the process. This is all fine and dandy, BUT, we all fail to realize that it's up to the bulls ability to sire good cattle, and not our ability to judge pictures and etc.

Now, the point I'd like to make for opening up the flood gates is.....PEOPLE, we've got to realize there are NO PERFECT animals! Every new year I keep thinking that the consumer is going to quit buying semen off of a perfect picture....but we don't. WE DO IT TO OURSELVES!..... it's human nature and we need to wise up, or can we? Is it impossible to break old habits? Go to Denver and analyse the bulls with an objective mind. Look at their problems and look at their strengths. Make notes and ASK QUESTIONS....it's the only way we learn. Study pedigrees two or three generations on the top and bottom, then think about how this bull may or may not fit into your program, and most of all, put yourself in that bull owners shoes before you start anything, good or bad.

I've tried to always be of a more positive mentality and not let the negative get to me, BUT, it's hard for some people to do that....especially after they've invested thousands and thousands of dollars into a bull or bulls and need some return. There were six, eight, or maybe even ten empty display spots in Denver this year, and that's unheard of.....and it all basically boils down to not wanting to put themselves at the mercy of the public. (Me, I was just too old and lazy! haha) So whether you like the bull owners or not, give them credit for at least giving you a chance to swipe their legs out from underneath them. Denver really is fun and a main stay of our industry and I hope everyone can have the chance once in their lifetime to attend this event.

I'm in favor of video's (especially FREE, like Jeff is doing) because I personally think people are smart enough to realize most of what I said earlier and they use it as a tool because they were unable to be there. I know I certainly didn't mind, even when it was -6 below, on My Turn. I tend to think more like P.T. Barnum...."there's no such thing as bad publicity!" As long as they're talking about you, at least you're in their head. That's better than the alternative. I studied the bulls for two days in person, and still will go to Jeff's video's to jog my memory. One of my favorite non-cattle websites is tmz.com. It's a bunch of punks with video camera's chasing celebs when they step foot into public, hoping to catch them doing or saying something stupid or entertaining. (You may have seen the TV show, but the website is much better.) This could be the case in our industry.....but thank God we still have some good people out there trying to do their dead level best and be a nice guy!

Please take this post as something to stimulate conversation, and not me thinking I'm all high and mighty (which really I do

, and lets see what we can figure out. Thanks!

shortyjock89 · Jan 19, 2009

Brad, I agree with you...seems like both the Promoters and Consumers have both kind of put us in a hard spot here. And the worst part is, when you see a picture of a bull, you have to immediately ask yourself "How much PhotoShopping has been done?" even when sometimes the picture is as honest as a Judge. I understand that no animal is perfect, and everyone should realize that ALL of those bulls in the yards had faults this last week, but they were still exceptionall individuals, and time will let the cream rise to the top.

I'm glad I got to go to Denver and actually see the bulls and handle a good deal of them and ask questions. It should make these decisions easier when it comes time to do some breeding.

If I owned one of those high-profile bulls, I would really like feedback on the bulls, good and bad...but bashing them might get old, especially if the animal actually IS good.

Great post,

Justin

knabe · Jan 19, 2009

here's a link to how they do it in s. america

http://www.ciale.com/default.asp?t=tabc

there's two video's of ohlde bulls in there.

i like how they get them hopping around a little bit.

they are fat in these videos

RSC · Jan 19, 2009

jbh said:
Hey Everyone.....Brad Hook here,

An earlier conversation that had to be pulled discussed an issue I'd like to reflect on. I'm directing this specifically at the consumer and have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENT aimed at anyone promoting a bull or bulls.

One of the main topics addressed was whether or not to keep as tight a hold on the reigns of the bull you're promoting, or open up the flood gates as far as they'll go in regards to what pictures and video the public has access to. Please do not mention any specific bulls or owners when posting your opinions......some are a little more sensitive than others.

The point I'd like to make in favor of control is....WE DID IT TO OURSELVES! What? How many times have you looked at a bull in person, in a video or in a photo, and instantly started trying to pick out everything wrong with him and then running your mouth or fingers on the keyboard?.......I have and so have you! Is this called an opinion, or is it called bashing? I guess it depends on the tone and wordage, but it sure made Adobe Photoshop a lot of money!

About Photoshop......the first time I was introduced to photoshop was when I had a professional non-cattle ad agent build Heat Seekers ad for us. He ONLY used it to clean dust particles off his body, as was a common practice back then. He wouldn't have known a good bull if it kicked him in the head......so don't think it was messed with anymore than that, and I didn't even own a computer until 1998! While there, I looked at my partner in dismay, and on the way home we discussed how this could eventually become a BIG problem if just anyone bought and learned how to use it. CALLED that one didn't we! Now, an out of hand, anything goes mentality has taken us to the point where you can't believe a thing you see without questioning what you're seeing.....ALL in the pursuit of the perfect animal that Joe Promoter wants Joe Public to fall in love with and make thousands of dollars in the process. This is all fine and dandy, BUT, we all fail to realize that it's up to the bulls ability to sire good cattle, and not our ability to judge pictures and etc.

Now, the point I'd like to make for opening up the flood gates is.....PEOPLE, we've got to realize there are NO PERFECT animals! Every new year I keep thinking that the consumer is going to quit buying semen off of a perfect picture....but we don't. WE DO IT TO OURSELVES!..... it's human nature and we need to wise up, or can we? Is it impossible to break old habits? Go to Denver and analyse the bulls with an objective mind. Look at their problems and look at their strengths. Make notes and ASK QUESTIONS....it's the only way we learn. Study pedigrees two or three generations on the top and bottom, then think about how this bull may or may not fit into your program, and most of all, put yourself in that bull owners shoes before you start anything, good or bad.

I've tried to always be of a more positive mentality and not let the negative get to me, BUT, it's hard for some people to do that....especially after they've invested thousands and thousands of dollars into a bull or bulls and need some return. There were six, eight, or maybe even ten empty display spots in Denver this year, and that's unheard of.....and it all basically boils down to not wanting to put themselves at the mercy of the public. (Me, I was just too old and lazy! haha) So whether you like the bull owners or not, give them credit for at least giving you a chance to swipe their legs out from underneath them. Denver really is fun and a main stay of our industry and I hope everyone can have the chance once in their lifetime to attend this event.

I'm in favor of video's (especially FREE, like Jeff is doing) because I personally think people are smart enough to realize most of what I said earlier and they use it as a tool because they were unable to be there. I know I certainly didn't mind, even when it was -6 below, on My Turn. I tend to think more like P.T. Barnum...."there's no such thing as bad publicity!" As long as they're talking about you, at least you're in their head. That's better than the alternative. I studied the bulls for two days in person, and still will go to Jeff's video's to jog my memory. One of my favorite non-cattle websites is tmz.com. It's a bunch of punks with video camera's chasing celebs when they step foot into public, hoping to catch them doing or saying something stupid or entertaining. (You may have seen the TV show, but the website is much better.) This could be the case in our industry.....but thank God we still have some good people out there trying to do their dead level best and be a nice guy!

Please take this post as something to stimulate conversation, and not me thinking I'm all high and mighty (which really I do , and lets see what we can figure out. Thanks!

Brad are all your calf pictures for your pasture sale taken loose or do you photoshop halters off or whats your thoughts on taken good pictures?

Thanks,

Tony Romshek

TJ · Jan 19, 2009

Olson Family Shorthorns said:
If I owned one of those high-profile bulls, I would really like feedback on the bulls, good and bad...but bashing them might get old, especially if the animal actually IS good.

I agree. As long as it's not "bashing just to bash", I like to hear the good & the bad. Sometimes you get a little "barn blind" & need outside opinions... sometimes someone will see something that everyone else missed. It can be humbling, but you can learn a lot & you can make better decisions. Even when I have a strong opinion about something or already have my mind made up, I still like to see what other people think. As they say, "2 minds are better than 1".

knabe · Jan 19, 2009

hmm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090119/ap_on_bi_ge/retailing_makeover

Sales clerks are also checking back with customers to see if they're satisfied with their purchases. "We are in a sea change," said Millard "Mickey" Drexler, J.Crew's chairman and chief executive and former CEO and visionary of Gap Inc.

personally, the biggest void in marketing i see is what the bull nicks with rather than trying to hide his faults.

ie, what bull cleans up front ends of all those females that were supposed to be steers?

what bull provides neck extension, rather than just having it himself.

what traits does he pass on rather than just having himself?

everyone's got themselves in a corner with heatwave.

everyone's trying to put a heatwave butt and open front end on everything. i wish they'd just switch to showing clones and get it overwith.

i can almost guarantee you that when i go to the western bonanza next month, everyone will have the same thing again, especially the heifers.

jbh · Jan 19, 2009

Tony,

THe p2p calves were all taken loose in a picture pen, and my opinion on photoshoping is, if it is something that could have been done with clippers or a comb, then I see nothing wrong with it, like flies or hair blowed up by the wind and etc....but unfortunately your morals are your guide, both good and bad....that's why I like to take video's AND picture them, that way people can subconsciously put faith in my ability to pick one and not just picture one, as they see that I'm not trying to hide anything. It generally all comes out a year later, when the calves are born, one way or another.

I have 2-3 guys helping me get those calf pictures and it takes anywhere from 20-45 minutes per calf to get them. It's amazing what a difference angle and height can make when shooting. You can really see it after you take several pictures from several different angles.

Dusty · Jan 19, 2009

I guess I always thought the reason to spend a butt load of money to take a bull to Denver was to show him off. The pics and the videos that are taken of a bull and then spread around are free advertisement. Granted I know not every pic/video is going to be at the best angle or whatever, but I think most people realize that. I think part of the problem is that some breeders/promoters want it so that the only info you have on a bull is what they want you to have. By having videos of bulls and unphotoshopped pics floating around I think it makes the good ones even more legit to the public.
I personally hate the professionally taken photoshopped pics that people are using to promote cattle. A perfect pose profile pic of a calf doesn't tell a person a whole lot about an animal. They all look more or less the same in those pics. I like what some of south dakota boys are doing with pics, taking some what look like snapshots of the calf out in the pasture. Give me a couple different angles of a calf in his natural habitat and it will get me there to look at him quicker than a upheaded photoshopped profile pic. A perfect pic might sell some semen for a year or two, but the gotta be the real deal to be around for awhile. How many people use HW, WMW or HS because of his picture? The good ones are around for awhile because they are good. I realize that there is something to be said for a bull getting a good start and getting into a lot of good cows. But, I think that there is a lot more to cattle promoting than taking a good picture.

I think the cattle business should be embracing modern technology instead of bucking it. With what we all have in front of us right now(a computer) the world is really a small place. You could literally promote an animal to the whole world without ever leaving your farm.

I think that internet discussion is good and helps everyone involved, the bull owner, the breeder, the trader and the showman. It helps keep eveyone more informed of both the good and the bad. We are all better off hearing about the bad things than we are about the good things. Granted there is a lot of BS that goes on, but the truth usually finds it way out eventually.

Another thing. I like to think that when I look at and comment on an animal I'm not biased as to owns it, on the halter etc. I try to call a good one a good one and a bad one a bad one. It gets on my nerves when people take cattle comments personally. For gods sake they're just animals people. And the vast majority of them will be forgotten in a few years anyway. When someone looks at something of mine I want to hear what they don't like as opposed to what they like. I usually already know whats good about my animal. People have a tendency to not see whats bad. Theres where outside critics come in, to tell you what he/she is lacking...

Dusty

farwest · Jan 19, 2009

You don't need bashing to be humbled promoting a bull. Light traffic will send ya the message. One thing true is the people who do the most bashing will never stick their necks out to the scrutiny and thousands of dollars

CPL · Jan 19, 2009

Brad, am I out of my mind, or was there a video on Jeff's site some time ago that explained how you took the photos? That was really interesting to watch and I wouldn't mind seeing it again.

I remember a couple years ago when I was first looking into AI and I was discussing it with my FFA Advisor at the time and when I told him that I had pretty much found the bull he asked me if I had ever seen him. The bull was dead so the answer was no, but it still was the whole idea of doing everything in your ability to research about that bull. I agree with what Jeff said on another thread about using other sources than the owner's own advertisement. I do think that the cattle industry needs more unbiased reporting much like what Jeff is doing that just tells (or in this case shows) it like it is. But then once again if you are just basing your breeding decisions off of Jeff's videos then I think you need to go back and re-evaluate whats going on. Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the way certain traits have different amounts of value in different people's eyes. I love it when I go to a judging contest and there's a handful of grown men/women who all have different opinions on how class x should be placed. Like you said no bull is perfect and I don't believe in a universal bull. There should be more emphasis on how that bull will match up with the cow instead of just looking at the bull alone. Am I wrong or would it make more sense to look at breeding cattle similarly to puzzle pieces rather than just breeding great bulls to average cows?

TJ · Jan 19, 2009

Dusty said:
I guess I always thought the reason to spend a butt load of money to take a bull to Denver was to show him off. The pics and the videos that are taken of a bull and then spread around are free advertisement. Granted I know not every pic/video is going to be at the best angle or whatever, but I think most people realize that. I think part of the problem is that some breeders/promoters want it so that the only info you have on a bull is what they want you to have. By having videos of bulls and unphotoshopped pics floating around I think it makes the good ones even more legit to the public.
I personally hate the professionally taken photoshopped pics that people are using to promote cattle. A perfect pose profile pic of a calf doesn't tell a person a whole lot about an animal. They all look more or less the same in those pics. I like what some of south dakota boys are doing with pics, taking some what look like snapshots of the calf out in the pasture. Give me a couple different angles of a calf in his natural habitat and it will get me there to look at him quicker than a upheaded photoshopped profile pic. A perfect pic might sell some semen for a year or two, but the gotta be the real deal to be around for awhile. How many people use HW, WMW or HS because of his picture? The good ones are around for awhile because they are good. I realize that there is something to be said for a bull getting a good start and getting into a lot of good cows. But, I think that there is a lot more to cattle promoting than taking a good picture.

I think the cattle business should be embracing modern technology instead of bucking it. With what we all have in front of us right now(a computer) the world is really a small place. You could literally promote an animal to the whole world without ever leaving your farm.

I think that internet discussion is good and helps everyone involved, the bull owner, the breeder, the trader and the showman. It helps keep eveyone more informed of both the good and the bad. We are all better off hearing about the bad things than we are about the good things. Granted there is a lot of BS that goes on, but the truth usually finds it way out eventually.

Another thing. I like to think that when I look at and comment on an animal I'm not biased as to owns it, on the halter etc. I try to call a good one a good one and a bad one a bad one. It gets on my nerves when people take cattle comments personally. For gods sake they're just animals people. And the vast majority of them will be forgotten in a few years anyway. When someone looks at something of mine I want to hear what they don't like as opposed to what they like. I usually already know whats good about my animal. People have a tendency to not see whats bad. Theres where outside critics come in, to tell you what he/she is lacking...

Dusty

A very good post!

olsun · Jan 19, 2009

I am the guilty party that started the other post. I was very disapointed that some of the bulls in Denver would"t be on vidio. I want to thank Brad for giving me the other side of the picture. Since I have never promoted a bull, I was a little ignorant of what a bull owner feels and goes through. I think I can see things more clearly now. Thanks again Brad for a very well said post. (clapping) Earl

GONEWEST · Jan 20, 2009

IF it were me promoting a bull for everyone to see, I would not use most of the videos taken by this particular party. MOST are less than flattering, it's not exactly Christy Collins with a video camera. They appear skewed, if taken from behind the head looks tiny and the butt looks big, if taken from the front the heads llook like moose and the butt looks like a white tail. He is making the videos as a public service both to you and the owners of the bull and is to be commended on his efforts. The MAIN thing is that you cannot tell any more from seeing a video of a bull standing still than you can in a picture. THESE particular videos are no substitute for seeing the bull in real life, that is an indisputable fact. To me, those who have posted the negative comments either believe that it is, or just want to cast a negative light on the firm in question. People are jealous of those who have success and tend to criticize and down grade at every opportunity, just like they do Brad. PLUS it's not my place to tell it, but there is more to the story about the for-mentioned bulls not being on tape.

More inportant than what these bulls look like is the fact that there are dozens of bulls that you already know what kind of calves you will get and what consistency you will get with them, which in general isn't very much. Use them until there are calves on the ground by these new bulls and then you won't have to worry about the pictures being photshopped or enhanced in any way. In the end it doesn't matter what a bull looks like, it matters what his calves look like. Ask Brad about Hannibal, once I learned how to use him he has given me the most consistent group of calves I have for 3 straight years. But you don't want to look at him. To me this whole thing has made a mountain out of a mole hill.

Throttle · Jan 20, 2009

I think there are a bunch of good points in the above posts. The advent of the internet has changed the way bulls are promoted the last several years and it is sad to hear that it may be affecting the number of bulls put on display. I think Brad is right that people have been way too negative in their descriptions and accounts of display bulls, basically since these message boards have been around, but I also think that the bigger picture here is that club calves just aren't sound enough for many good cattlemen anymore. They are just too extreme built as a group and that makes them too unpredictable as to how they pass on skeletal structure. I can't remember the last time that there was a display bull at the Beef Expo that could have even won a division in the steer show. There are a handful of steers out there every year that are soft, sound, thick, hairy, good fronted, total package types. Why aren't there a handful of bulls that fit that description in the yards every year too?

I was not in Denver this year or last, but have seen bulls at Ohio Beef Expo and Hawkeye and Nichols. I haven't seen a clubby one that I liked that much in a long time. I really can't remember the last one that I thought was a real great one when I saw him. That's not saying that there aren't bulls every year that I think will work for this trait or that. I think knabe is on the right track with his idea of promoting traits more.

I guess it's my opinion that several factors in this business are out of whack and need the big guys attention. First, let's be more selective in what we promote. A focus on quality rather than quantity is in order here. There are enough of those, "he's thick enough, kinda straight, got some shoulder, toes out a bit" types to choose from. They all breed pretty similar. Some great ones, some junk. Only promoting bulls that you'd be proud for the world to see under any conditions would be a logical place to start.

Second, I think that being more honest in ads, both photos and descriptions, would help a lot too. Rather than promoting each bull as the total package and savior of the industry, an ad with untouched photos of the bull in several poses at several different stages of development, with descriptions of what his strongest traits are (weaknesses would be nice too, but hey, I've promoted stock before and, being a realist here, know that is much to ask) would go a long way with me. All those perfect profile pics have become pretty meaningless.

I guess it just seems to me that there are plenty of the same to choose from. At this point, I'm using what's proven to work or something with the combination of striking looks and pedigree, I just wish more of those would surface each year

CAB · Jan 20, 2009

Very interesting discussion. I for one am trying to stay away from the, bred to be a steer, he's good, let's leave the nuts in him, clubbie-bred accidental bull. Most of them are so crossed up that they can't possibly breed with any predictably. Add to that a female that is bred the same way and look out. One of the reasons that the steers showing in the ring are better than the bulls on display is the kind of money that the great steers are bringing ( catch 22 ). I am trying to make myself use bulls that are @ least 3/4 blood to get some reasonable amount of predictability, but like Brad said, old habits are hard to break, and why is it so hard to take a 2/3 year old bull out and promote him? We are all looking for the next great one. Come to think about it, I was way more promotable in my younger days. My wife couldn't pay anyone to take me now. I regress. Love the post PPL. I doubt it's going to change the way the machine is working, but possibly it will help us to think about some other PPL's whoas. Have a good day. I need to go hay cows. Brent

ROAD WARRIOR · Jan 20, 2009

First let me state that I don't raise club calves, so this is a look from the outside in. Even with my limited knowledge of the club calf sire business, I am aware that nearly every picture you see is tweaked with photoshop. Bulls that are commonly used in the club calf business would not even be considered in the purebred world because of their structural issues, yes I understand that the structural problems go hand in hand with the extreme muscle and phenotype that is apperently most desired. Many of these bulls also carry huge birth weights that would eliminate them from the purebred world. From what I have seen, bulls with the TH genetic defect are somewhat dominant in the business, not something the purebred world "should" tolerate either. Believe it or not some of these bulls are man made with hair, air, oil, calidex,etc. etc. - ya I may know more than I should, 30 years on the road will do that to you. So if I were to look for a bull to promote I would try to find one with a huge top, hip and bone, build him more with the above described items, he would likely have been a 150# c-section calf out of a carrier bull and a clean cow and as long as he can get from the feeder to the water tank in his pen thats good enough. Spend a couple of days washing and clipping him after he had been in the cooler for 90 days and take some pictures of him that I could photoshop in or out anything that was needed. And last but not least, go through all of my old CDs to find a really cool name for him - " God of Thunder" maybe. Obviously, I have exagerated the whole scenerio, but my point is this - These bulls are the "rock stars" and celebs of the cattle industry, no more of a representation of the cattle business than Brittany Spears is of the human race and as such they are subject to the "poperattzi" and public eye more than others. If you don't want people to talk about you (good or bad) stay out of the game. RW

farwest · Jan 20, 2009

That's right rw. And if you want to have fun maybe make a buck, not puke when you drive through your cattle , jump in

ROAD WARRIOR · Jan 20, 2009

farwest said:
That's right rw. And if you want to have fun maybe make a buck, not puke when you drive through your cattle , jump in

I have alot of fun and make a little money, but can't say I have ever puked while driving through my cow herd, even if I did have a hang over. RW

RSC · Jan 20, 2009

I will disagree that the internet is effecting the number of bulls that are being promoted. Yes there are empty stalls now but I believe it points more to the fact that it's not as even of a playing field as it used to be. If I had developed some computer software and there was one large trade show to promote it at and there were only a few more small outfits promoting like me and the rest of the trade show was all Microsoft, it wouldn't take long for me to get burned out. Let me preface by saying, the large outfits that have numerous bulls out there have every right to do so. It's just hard to compete and get traffic to look at your bull.

RSC

jbh · Jan 20, 2009

farwest said:
You don't need bashing to be humbled promoting a bull. Light traffic will send ya the message. One thing true is the people who do the most bashing will never stick their necks out to the scrutiny and thousands of dollars

EXACTLY RIGHT! (on both points)

Bull Promotion- Controlled or UNcontrolled?

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