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Offline justintime

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2019, 08:36:00 AM »
I also believe you can tell so much from a bull's head and also from a female's head. As a long time sales manager used to tell me "just send me a picture of your sale animals heads, and I will tell you which ones are going to be in the sale". I used to think he was just being smart, but now I think he actually was smart. As with most things, I don't think it is best to have extremes in anything in the head but you definitely want some width between the eyes but not to an excessive amount. Wider skulls can lead to calving problems especially when used on heifers. I also think in a bull's head, you want to see masculinity and in a female's head, you want to see femininity. In other words, a female's head should resemble one of the cheerleaders on the sidelines, rather than one of the defensive guards.
Another trait I used to see old timers mention was the circumference of the bull's tail. One of my mentors when growing up, used to tell me that I should never use a bull with a small circumference of his tail. He used to say that when you put you hand around the tail about half way up from the top of the switch, your should be able to just make your fingers touch each other. I always thought that there was a far bit of leeway in this as some guys have monster sized mitts and some don't. This man told me that the bulls with smaller circumference tails were not as hardy as those with bigger circumference tails. I think there is something to this, as the easiest fleshing cattle always seem to have thicker tails.
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Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2019, 11:22:54 AM »
Back to the topic of heads, here's a good example of a day old calf that has the right kind of head in my opinion.  Muzzle is almost as wide as his forehead.  Maybe a bit more set to his eyes (more hooded so you can't see them from head on) would be ideal. His mother isn't ideal in that way and accordingly she has had pinkeye in the past.  Pretty direct correlation around here.  If I can see their eyeballs from the front, they will get pinkeye in their lifetime.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2019, 05:13:41 PM »
Heres a long yearling on grass-NO : her left rear leg didnt start like that-theres a metal rod in it-She still managed to come back from an extremely bad calfhood. She was injured through most of it. Although I dont think her head had alot to do with how she developed along in spite of it all that O0
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 05:15:06 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2019, 05:21:09 PM »
Heres a long yearling on grass-NO : her left rear leg didnt start like that-theres a metal rod in it-She still managed to come back from an extremely bad calfhood. She was injured through most of it. Although I dont think her head had alot to do with how she developed along in spite of it all that O0

I like that head on her for sure.
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Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2019, 05:21:42 PM »
Back to the topic of heads, here's a good example of a day old calf that has the right kind of head in my opinion.  Muzzle is almost as wide as his forehead.  Maybe a bit more set to his eyes (more hooded so you can't see them from head on) would be ideal. His mother isn't ideal in that way and accordingly she has had pinkeye in the past.  Pretty direct correlation around here.  If I can see their eyeballs from the front, they will get pinkeye in their lifetime.

Love your cattle. Those Resource cattle you have are excellent
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Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2019, 07:37:09 AM »
Heres a long yearling on grass-NO : her left rear leg didnt start like that-theres a metal rod in it-She still managed to come back from an extremely bad calfhood. She was injured through most of it. Although I dont think her head had alot to do with how she developed along in spite of it all that O0

Agreed Mark that's a nice headed heifer, broken leg or not haha. We need an "injury prone" EPD I think  (pop)

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2019, 07:48:26 AM »
She sure does-Her first calf X Angus was one of the heaviest out of 40 or so Then she went down to nothing after weaning-afraid wed lose her. Put a magnet in her, and she finally came back strong again-Her nick name is Calamity O0

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2019, 09:33:27 AM »
I did not ever use Enticer, as I did not like the way his offspring sloped off from hooks to pins. I was told by very good authority ( by a man who was involved in raising Enticer) that his dam was the Reserve National Champion Maine female in the US a few years before. This was a trait pretty common in Maine cattle in that era, so I am tending to agree with what he told me. Unfortunately, this type of thing happened in many breeds in that day, as it was before DNA testing. The only tool available to verify purity was blood typing, and it was far from being totally accurate. I remember talking with the head of the blood typing lab at Ohio State, ar the Graham Land and Cattle dispersal in Minnesota, and he confirming that most breeds were infusing cattle from other breeds. He said that some Milking Shorthorn blood types could slip through the blood tuping tests in Angus and that they had found 7 full blood Maine bulls that blood typed as purebred Shorthorns. I also remember getting a phone call from a well known Angus breeder in that era, asking me if I knew where I could find semen from McKee's Matchless Dairyman, a red Milking Shorthorn bull. This guy told me that this bull sired solid black calves when used on Angus cows and they also blood typed as purebred Angus. This wasn't just a Shorthorn thing. I believe the advancements in the past few years, with DNA testing, have cleaned up a lot of crap that was happening.


Great. A clear answer. Good!
Wish more info like that, on both road sides (breeds).
Sure not all are like to open the black secrets!

Offline aj

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2019, 10:46:33 AM »
A hair off topic but....Cross Diamond Cattle Co. of Nebraska measures baby calves heads in order to help judge calving ease. Readings had varied from 51.5-42 cm.
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Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2019, 11:54:23 AM »
A hair off topic but....Cross Diamond Cattle Co. of Nebraska measures baby calves heads in order to help judge calving ease. Readings had varied from 51.5-42 cm.
Interesting. I suppose that is not much different than using the tape measure for birth weights.  Head type and size usually follows pretty consistently with body type. Long narrow head -> tall narrow animal, tiny head -> tiny calf, short stout head-> short stout calf.

Offline aj

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2019, 12:55:43 PM »
The head deal may be more of deal for a first calf heifer calving I don't know. Shoulder width would be hard to measure. It would be fascinating for someone to have a study........measure heads, hooves, actual weights, and calving ease. And then correlate all comparisons. Then.....what does work best. Measuring a head is usually easier than hoisting the damn calf up.
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Offline justintime

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2019, 06:58:26 AM »
The head deal may be more of deal for a first calf heifer calving I don't know. Shoulder width would be hard to measure. It would be fascinating for someone to have a study........measure heads, hooves, actual weights, and calving ease. And then correlate all comparisons. Then.....what does work best. Measuring a head is usually easier than hoisting the damn calf up.

There has been some research done on this and Jan Bonsma from South Africa did quite a bit of measurements of the length and width of heads and how it should correlate with different measurements of cattle. I heard Bonsma speak once, probably back in the late 60s and it was fascinating how he said the length and width of the animals heads could tell you. I am still trying to find some of his speeches and I would think some of this should be on the internet someplace. Seems like everything else in the world is on the net someplace. I will keep looking. In the meantime, I have attached a picture of a bull's head I have always liked. This is Saskvalley Pioneer 126P who was a herd sire for us several years ago. I am still using him some each year.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Bulls Heads
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2019, 08:29:44 AM »
Came across a couple bull pics.  First one is pretty nice headed for a thickness and power type of bull. Certainly not a calving ease type.  Second picture is starting to get to that "puggy" stage in my opinion.  Notice the raised brows and curved nose.  To me those cattle lack some growth and females tend to be less fertile with those heads, especially i the more extreme cases.

 

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