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Offline GoWyo

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2020, 03:36:58 PM »
Every producer's resource base is unique.  If you raise a lot of irrigated alfalfa hay and are short pasture, then the choice is to sell hay or feed it and a higher input-output cow might be in order.  If you are long on grass and short on hay or have to purchase all your winter feed at high cost, then the low input cow might be more profitable.  In a lot of the inter-mountain west, a 1300-1400 lb. cow in BCS 5 is pretty common (even though the guys who don't weigh them will tell you they only weigh 1100).  The forage is usually higher quality, but less bulky than washy grass, and with a lot more steps in between bites, so you will see cows that can tend to have less body depth because they don't need it to get the good from their forage source.  Set your performance and cull parameters and see what pretty actually looks like for the environment they're in.
May you always have cows around . . . ~ Corb Lund

Stop the violins -- visualize whirled peas

Online Mtnman

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2020, 10:02:07 PM »
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !

Online -XBAR-

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2020, 01:26:28 PM »
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

Offline shortybreeder

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2020, 12:24:13 PM »
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s
There's a difference between "inputs" and "supplements"
Hay is an input and all-but-required in a lot of places (particularly in mountain areas)
Grain is a supplement.

If you weren't so hell-bent on attacking other people you might take a moment to consider the differences.

Online Mtnman

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2020, 08:52:18 AM »
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

My cattle get Alfalfa and grass hay in the winter when there is no forage available is what normal inputs mean.

I think it must be impossible for you to understand that there are cattle that perform well and in this case out perform what you are use to. Unlike you I'm not going to judge your cattle or operation because I don't know you or your cattle.

Online -XBAR-

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2020, 09:38:18 AM »
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s
There's a difference between "inputs" and "supplements"
Hay is an input and all-but-required in a lot of places (particularly in mountain areas)
Grain is a supplement.

If you weren't so hell-bent on attacking other people you might take a moment to consider the differences.

There's no difference between the two.  They're both feedstuffs whose value for the most part is interchangeable based on quantity fed.   

I've not attacked anyone-- only clarified and pointed out that if you're willing to provide feedstuffs above and beyond what can be grazed in your pasture that you can have whatever size cows you want.





My cattle get Alfalfa and grass hay in the winter when there is no forage available is what normal inputs mean.

I think it must be impossible for you to understand that there are cattle that perform well and in this case out perform what you are use to. Unlike you I'm not going to judge your cattle or operation because I don't know you or your cattle.

Alfalfa-nice- of course they are.   
I'm as objective as anyone on here-- I said nothing negative about your cows-- they look good to me-- but I don't need to know you personally in order to know that 1600lb cows have to be supplemented.

Offline 764wdchev

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2020, 10:53:56 AM »
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
If it was easy, everyone would succeed.

Offline shortybreeder

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2020, 11:04:56 AM »
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
^^This. Even 1000lb cows need something to eat in the winter.

Online -XBAR-

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2020, 12:22:41 PM »
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
Supplement is anything that you have to pull cash out of your pocket and buy, as opposed to forages that are naturally grown in your pasture.  There are producers in every state in the country -Canada too- whose cattle graze stockpiled grass all winter. This takes a certain size cow.  Now depending on how big of cow you prefer is going to determine how much you have to supplement from this baseline point. 

Offline Gargan

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2020, 01:04:10 PM »
Doesn't take a certain. Sized cow, but a certain type , as in easy keeping. I've seen 1100 lovers that are harder keeping than some 1600 lbers
Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.  -Ronald reagan

Offline shortybreeder

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2020, 03:41:48 PM »
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
Supplement is anything that you have to pull cash out of your pocket and buy, as opposed to forages that are naturally grown in your pasture.  There are producers in every state in the country -Canada too- whose cattle graze stockpiled grass all winter. This takes a certain size cow.  Now depending on how big of cow you prefer is going to determine how much you have to supplement from this baseline point.
Not necessarily the size of the cow, as Gargan also pointed out. There are plenty of 1600lb+ cows on those canadian operations.

Grazing year round has a lot more to do with available landmass and grazing management. Sure, you can run more small cows on the same space through winter if that's the approach you want to take, but that doesn't mean larger cows can't do it.

Either you stock to the density you can support over winter, or you stock to the density you can support over summer. If you choose the latter, you will be buying inputs. Buying inputs for the winter doesn't make your cattle any less functional.

Look at the Australian cattle. They survive incredibly difficult environments in many areas, and their bulls are 6+ frame 2000lb+ while still producing cows that graze year-round.

I'm sorry, but your small cows are not the answer to saving the world. I'm not saying the big ones are, but your "objectivity" is demonstrably centered around a very narrow worldview, and your consistent attacks against anyone who thinks differently is ridiculous.

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2020, 06:20:33 PM »
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.




Offline Gargan

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2020, 06:58:34 PM »
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar
Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.  -Ronald reagan

Offline beebe

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2020, 11:18:55 PM »
25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

Online Mtnman

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2020, 08:48:20 AM »
25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

Your cow's have adapted to your environment and operation which is basically what my point was in my original response. This isn't just evident only in livestock but in deer and elk, the farther north you go the larger body mass those animals are because they have to have that size to survive the harsh environmental conditions. And by enlarge those animals get no feed other than what they dig up through the snow. They are not managed for high performance production and winter death loss is higher than we would ever except in our operations.

 

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