Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: neocattleman on April 18, 2020, 06:56:58 PM

Title: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: neocattleman on April 18, 2020, 06:56:58 PM
I'm looking for ai bulls preferably simmental, Maine, or possibly Shorthorn but open to other breeds to breed some mature cows to that consistently throw frame score 6-8 calves and can help increase my herds mature size and ADG. I feel like I have gone slightly away from the frame score and size I want/need over the past few years.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on April 18, 2020, 07:11:28 PM
Are you looking for bulls that will sire calves bigger than 6 to 8 frame ?
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: neocattleman on April 19, 2020, 12:15:57 AM
No I'm looking for bulls that can help me make calves that fall into that 6-8 frame range. most of my cows are about 5 frame and are throwing 5 frames. So the bull would need to upsize the calves. I realize now my wording may have been confusing
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: beebe on April 19, 2020, 09:17:07 AM
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Dale on April 19, 2020, 09:18:48 AM
Sutherland Titleist 269 ET *x

http://sutherlandshorthorns.com/semen.html (http://sutherlandshorthorns.com/semen.html)

Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: mark tenenbaum on April 19, 2020, 04:57:00 PM
THE HIGHEST performing bull and the best BWS  I have ever used is Fresh Air-A GFS Creole Son raised by Jim Compton-he is a recent bull and has sired some real good ones out of mostly x bred and other breeds-Two or three purebred Daughters have won the Badger Show in wisconsin and stood up at the National Jr Show and state level A BREED LOOKING Purebred steer was recently  reserve at Badger and Champion at the iowa beef expo We have a Sept 26 2019 Daughter from a very moderate cow thats is as tall as some of the March April 2019 long yearlings who WILL SHOW once the grow levels out I have a little semen on Fresh Air-so does Compton-Hes the hiest BW to Weaning etc spread ive ever seen-AND Ive used alot of big ones-Deertrail Sagebrush, Navigator, T Bone, Mad Max, Deertrail Awesome etc--Millbrook Ransom 2975 is the Original frame maker non dairy dude-and not all udders were bad-That"s a cliche-He was Af Warriors grandsire and most like a Cunia I have semen and a small amount on Millbrooke Ransom  G-9 WHO PROBABLY WAS NOT 2975s sire and also thought to have maine in him Deertrail Goliath was huge but also actually made some very good looking and not always big cattle-Byland Bud Lights dam was by him-She was very moderate and wide as a barn JJ SL Tumbleweed was another-won alot of shows in the mid 90s He sire was  by Warrier Warrior bred to the original full Irish Kimillhill cow so a double kimillhill with 2975 on top then again on the bottom-AF Prudential on a 2975 cow on the bottom-He was real good looking for the times-have semen O0
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: kiblercattle on April 19, 2020, 07:39:26 PM
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I canít speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that donít have any length donít get it done. Now I donít want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on April 19, 2020, 08:28:16 PM
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I canít speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that donít have any length donít get it done. Now I donít want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.

 I'm right there with you. I was looking for a bull this spring. While looking at JSF, Byland, PVF I just couldn't bring myself to bid on bulls that are 3 to 5 frame. Obviously they have people that did, but they just don't work for me. Once again that's why everyone produces and raises what works for them, their environment and their customers.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: beebe on April 19, 2020, 11:06:40 PM
Thanks for the reply.  I like cattle that weigh heavy too I just don't think I need long legs to do that.  I used to have a bull that was a frame score 4 that weighed a ton.  I love his daughters.  I finish my own cattle on grass so maybe that takes a different phenotype, but I still think it is about length times width times depth that makes pounds and to me big is pounds not inches.  Legs don't weigh that much, but you are right we get to choose what we want to raise.  I am looking for a frame score 4 cow that weighs 1250 and weans half her weight or more.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Lucky_P on April 20, 2020, 08:32:23 AM
Waukaru Gold Card 5042 and W. Patent 8161 made some big ol' cows, out of 3/4AN-1/4 SM dams; the Gold Cards were probably the biggest cows we ever raised. Steers... IDK, as they all sold as weaned calves.

Almost all the Simmental sires we used in the past 10 years or so moderated mature cow size, compared to almost all the Angus sires we used in the previous 10 years, which made some of the biggest cows I'd had in 30 years of production.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on April 20, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Interesting I was just reading about cattle size in history from the University of Michigan, and their timeline of cattle is pretty cool. Obviously the British breed cattle from the early 1700's &1800's were as much ox as beef cattle, but it wasn't uncommon for Angus, Hereford or Shorthorn bulls to weigh in excess of 2500 pounds. One Hereford bull in 1836 weighed 3900+. Then following along to the 1950's cattle that were frame -1 and the problems that were had with dwarfism. Then back to the 80's with frame 10+ cattle and now we have swung back to smaller cattle.

We do breed our cattle to what we like in our own operations and environment. I personally like bigger cattle a frame 6+ cow is ideal for what we do. It takes years/generations to breed your cows larger but you can make them smaller in one breeding.  How small is to small?  How big of a roll does the packers play in cattle size? The commercial cattlemen that I sell bulls to are more concerned about getting the most dollars out of their calf crop then what happens in the showring, my customers live and run their cattle in extreme environments from desert to above timberline at 12,000 feet.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Medium Rare on April 20, 2020, 09:45:33 AM
Marquis 127x and Tradition 106t have both left the frame in them for me. Patent 8161 has put some frame on a few weaned calves for me, but I didn't dare keep any of them to know just how big they were going to get. I assume Crooked Post Stockman would at least leave the frame in a cow if not add to most, but I have yet to try him.

There's several bulls on the show side that can do the same if that's your goal, but several of them have a few issues to work around.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: beebe on April 20, 2020, 06:18:41 PM
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I canít speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that donít have any length donít get it done. Now I donít want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.

 I'm right there with you. I was looking for a bull this spring. While looking at JSF, Byland, PVF I just couldn't bring myself to bid on bulls that are 3 to 5 frame. Obviously they have people that did, but they just don't work for me. Once again that's why everyone produces and raises what works for them, their environment and their customers.

Where did you find frame 3 and 4 cattle?  I am not doubting you I would like to know where to find them.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: CRS on April 20, 2020, 08:05:03 PM
I'd probably go back a little bit to some more "old school" bulls like Meyer, Maximus, Whiplash, but with the bigger frame size usually you give up some calving ease.  There are some good older Maine bulls like Dirty Harry, Strictly Business and Bad Medicine that'll add from, but suck the guts out of a tubey one.  There is always the old Chi bulls like Total Play, Full Throttle and Full Flush that'll put some air under them, but still make them big hipped and powerful. 
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Medium Rare on April 20, 2020, 08:37:10 PM
Where did you find frame 3 and 4 cattle?  I am not doubting you I would like to know where to find them.

Have you tried Cherry Fillet? If you already have fairly moderate cows he will definitely keep the legs from getting too long on them.

There was multiple bulls in the 4s and at least 8-10 below a 4.5 in the PVF and Byland sale.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: beebe on April 20, 2020, 10:41:22 PM
I just flushed a cow to him and got 5 embryos.  Minn Max leader is a half brother to him out of the same cow.  I flushed a Sparkle cow that I bought from JIT to Muridale Rawhide 6 e and got 29 embryos.  I think he ]is a 5.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on April 21, 2020, 04:47:35 AM
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I canít speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that donít have any length donít get it done. Now I donít want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.

 I'm right there with you. I was looking for a bull this spring. While looking at JSF, Byland, PVF I just couldn't bring myself to bid on bulls that are 3 to 5 frame. Obviously they have people that did, but they just don't work for me. Once again that's why everyone produces and raises what works for them, their environment and their customers.

Where did you find frame 3 and 4 cattle?  I am not doubting you I would like to know where to find them.

Look at those 2 catalogs that I mentioned. They were in there.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on April 21, 2020, 04:49:13 AM
Marquis 127x and Tradition 106t have both left the frame in them for me. Patent 8161 has put some frame on a few weaned calves for me, but I didn't dare keep any of them to know just how big they were going to get. I assume Crooked Post Stockman would at least leave the frame in a cow if not add to most, but I have yet to try him.

There's several bulls on the show side that can do the same if that's your goal, but several of them have a few issues to work around.

Just curious why you said you wouldn't dare keep any of the 8161 calves??
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: redcows on April 21, 2020, 08:23:53 AM
I don't see frame scores in the Jungles catalog
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: aj on April 21, 2020, 02:01:18 PM
I bought a 4.7 in Lovings sale. Lot 17. So far I am tickled with the purchase. Steerplanet grin.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Medium Rare on April 21, 2020, 03:16:51 PM
Just curious why you said you wouldn't dare keep any of the 8161 calves??

I don't measure my commercial calves, but they were at least two frame scores bigger than the purebred calves I did measure and lacked depth. Much more terminal in appearance muscling wise than what I want to see in potential replacement females. I would assume they went on to make good feedlot calves though.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on April 21, 2020, 03:41:29 PM
Its one thing to want Terminal sires that have as much growth potential as your cows and environment can support

BUT

Actively seeking 6-8 frame bulls to sire replacement females is just madness as undoubtedly these cattle will require near year round out of pocket supplementation.   I don't want to put a single penny is my cows from early April until mid November so I just cant relate with actively taking a cowherd in a more costly-production direction.

A 6 frame cow that is built correctly is going to weigh 15-1600lbs.  Zero chance she ever weans half her body weight.

I don't care to look at 3 frames either but at the end of the day pretty is as pretty does and nothing pretty about a 6 frame 1100lb bag of bones.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: mark tenenbaum on April 21, 2020, 09:40:57 PM
A big bull on moderate cows will not necessarily raise the frame scores that much-maybe the weights been there done that including this year-where a 5 or less frame bull (Fresh Air) created what will be a 5-6 frame heifer from a 4.5 +- frame cow,Pics were taken just after she was   was weaned about 2 weeks ago and thrown in with yearling plus simms that are twice her age and big grow-1100 pounds etc-And the roan who will be a year in May-Shes 6.5 months here Had to contend with weaning and fighting them for feed-Well shes real wrung from these two week plus pictures-but she can walk over top of anything of her age and is standing her ground Her dam has huge grow genetics from somewhere-she has raised the biggest calf out of 30-or so from the first calf every year  till now-We are talking mainline Angus-and Simms-and maine Xs all of which are much larger than her O0
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on April 22, 2020, 04:41:07 AM
I don't see frame scores in the Jungles catalog
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Building Better Beef on May 02, 2020, 12:06:14 PM
A bull we have raised and used extensively is a purebred Shorthorn bull, Bell M Foreman 30A. His calves have excellent depth and are very functional. In all the years of using him on shorthorn and Shorty/Simm cross we have never had a spotty calf. 85% of his calves are dark roans. Our Foreman calves are all around frame 6 to 6.5. We have had other herds use him on smaller frame females and have beautiful 6 frame calves. Foreman calves have a long growth period, there is no growth spurts, they keep getting better with age. Daughters we have in production have well uniformed and neat udders with lots of milk. Sons are breeding well in purebred and commercial herds. Semen is available in Canada, USA and Australia. Bell M Captain 139D is a son we are using.

Canadian Shorthorn Association Digital Beef: https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=M477242 (https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=M477242)
Here is a link to him as a coming two year old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5rU1N6-QtU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5rU1N6-QtU)
On Pasture after the peak of his breeding season: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=508006289542901 (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=508006289542901)
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Building Better Beef on May 02, 2020, 01:12:09 PM
Here are a couple of Foreman females. The roan cow calved about 2.5 weeks ago. The white cow was pictured at 2019 Brandon Ag Ex where she was Champion Female. Showchampions seem to have troubles taking pictures of her (lol)
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on May 10, 2020, 04:59:44 PM
All of these cows are frame 6 and 6+, weigh from 1450 to 1650, all wean calves near 50% or more their body weight and require no extra inputs above what is considered normal for my area and environment. This is a small cross section of my cow herd, do I have smaller cows? Yes I do, I also have bigger cow's.  Why would anyone want to have 1960's and 1970's belt buckle calves? Very little performance, but then you get what you expect. Each to their own,  I'm not going to belittle your cattle if that's what you like.


Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: idalee on May 10, 2020, 05:33:43 PM
GOOD Cows!  Mtnman
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on May 10, 2020, 07:22:52 PM
GOOD Cows!  Mtnman

Thanks
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 11, 2020, 01:31:41 PM
 "Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want. 



Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: GoWyo on May 11, 2020, 03:36:58 PM
Every producer's resource base is unique.  If you raise a lot of irrigated alfalfa hay and are short pasture, then the choice is to sell hay or feed it and a higher input-output cow might be in order.  If you are long on grass and short on hay or have to purchase all your winter feed at high cost, then the low input cow might be more profitable.  In a lot of the inter-mountain west, a 1300-1400 lb. cow in BCS 5 is pretty common (even though the guys who don't weigh them will tell you they only weigh 1100).  The forage is usually higher quality, but less bulky than washy grass, and with a lot more steps in between bites, so you will see cows that can tend to have less body depth because they don't need it to get the good from their forage source.  Set your performance and cull parameters and see what pretty actually looks like for the environment they're in.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on May 11, 2020, 10:02:07 PM
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 14, 2020, 01:26:28 PM
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: shortybreeder on May 15, 2020, 12:24:13 PM
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s
There's a difference between "inputs" and "supplements"
Hay is an input and all-but-required in a lot of places (particularly in mountain areas)
Grain is a supplement.

If you weren't so hell-bent on attacking other people you might take a moment to consider the differences.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on May 17, 2020, 08:52:18 AM
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

My cattle get Alfalfa and grass hay in the winter when there is no forage available is what normal inputs mean.

I think it must be impossible for you to understand that there are cattle that perform well and in this case out perform what you are use to. Unlike you I'm not going to judge your cattle or operation because I don't know you or your cattle.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 19, 2020, 09:38:18 AM
"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !


 (lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it?   

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s
There's a difference between "inputs" and "supplements"
Hay is an input and all-but-required in a lot of places (particularly in mountain areas)
Grain is a supplement.

If you weren't so hell-bent on attacking other people you might take a moment to consider the differences.

There's no difference between the two.  They're both feedstuffs whose value for the most part is interchangeable based on quantity fed.   

I've not attacked anyone-- only clarified and pointed out that if you're willing to provide feedstuffs above and beyond what can be grazed in your pasture that you can have whatever size cows you want.





My cattle get Alfalfa and grass hay in the winter when there is no forage available is what normal inputs mean.

I think it must be impossible for you to understand that there are cattle that perform well and in this case out perform what you are use to. Unlike you I'm not going to judge your cattle or operation because I don't know you or your cattle.

Alfalfa-nice- of course they are.   
I'm as objective as anyone on here-- I said nothing negative about your cows-- they look good to me-- but I don't need to know you personally in order to know that 1600lb cows have to be supplemented.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: 764wdchev on May 19, 2020, 10:53:56 AM
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: shortybreeder on May 19, 2020, 11:04:56 AM
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
^^This. Even 1000lb cows need something to eat in the winter.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 19, 2020, 12:22:41 PM
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
Supplement is anything that you have to pull cash out of your pocket and buy, as opposed to forages that are naturally grown in your pasture.  There are producers in every state in the country -Canada too- whose cattle graze stockpiled grass all winter. This takes a certain size cow.  Now depending on how big of cow you prefer is going to determine how much you have to supplement from this baseline point. 
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Gargan on May 19, 2020, 01:04:10 PM
Doesn't take a certain. Sized cow, but a certain type , as in easy keeping. I've seen 1100 lovers that are harder keeping than some 1600 lbers
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: shortybreeder on May 19, 2020, 03:41:48 PM
XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.
Supplement is anything that you have to pull cash out of your pocket and buy, as opposed to forages that are naturally grown in your pasture.  There are producers in every state in the country -Canada too- whose cattle graze stockpiled grass all winter. This takes a certain size cow.  Now depending on how big of cow you prefer is going to determine how much you have to supplement from this baseline point.
Not necessarily the size of the cow, as Gargan also pointed out. There are plenty of 1600lb+ cows on those canadian operations.

Grazing year round has a lot more to do with available landmass and grazing management. Sure, you can run more small cows on the same space through winter if that's the approach you want to take, but that doesn't mean larger cows can't do it.

Either you stock to the density you can support over winter, or you stock to the density you can support over summer. If you choose the latter, you will be buying inputs. Buying inputs for the winter doesn't make your cattle any less functional.

Look at the Australian cattle. They survive incredibly difficult environments in many areas, and their bulls are 6+ frame 2000lb+ while still producing cows that graze year-round.

I'm sorry, but your small cows are not the answer to saving the world. I'm not saying the big ones are, but your "objectivity" is demonstrably centered around a very narrow worldview, and your consistent attacks against anyone who thinks differently is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 19, 2020, 06:20:33 PM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.



Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Gargan on May 19, 2020, 06:58:34 PM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: beebe on May 19, 2020, 11:18:55 PM
25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on May 20, 2020, 08:48:20 AM
25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

Your cow's have adapted to your environment and operation which is basically what my point was in my original response. This isn't just evident only in livestock but in deer and elk, the farther north you go the larger body mass those animals are because they have to have that size to survive the harsh environmental conditions. And by enlarge those animals get no feed other than what they dig up through the snow. They are not managed for high performance production and winter death loss is higher than we would ever except in our operations.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 20, 2020, 09:18:22 AM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so thereís gotta be something to it


Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: shortybreeder on May 20, 2020, 11:20:00 AM
25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

Your cow's have adapted to your environment and operation which is basically what my point was in my original response. This isn't just evident only in livestock but in deer and elk, the farther north you go the larger body mass those animals are because they have to have that size to survive the harsh environmental conditions. And by enlarge those animals get no feed other than what they dig up through the snow. They are not managed for high performance production and winter death loss is higher than we would ever except in our operations.
This is very true. Also, controlling a heifer's diet as she develops in the first couple years has a significant impact on her mature weight. Taking away the grain was a great way to sort through those that can cut it and those that can't, props to you, Beebe. I'd still bet if you put the grain to those heifers they possess the genetics to be >1400lbs mature weight. Those are the genetics that are valuable in my mind. It certainly takes time to get to the point where you're at by doing hard culling, and I commend you for this.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 20, 2020, 03:58:28 PM
Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  Iíve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise. 
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on May 20, 2020, 08:06:03 PM
Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  Iíve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.

I guess it would depend on what your cull criteria was.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: shortybreeder on May 20, 2020, 10:50:28 PM
Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  Iíve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but of the initial group of shorthorn heifers that I bought, the last one standing (because she was the only one to rebreed and calve on time every year) was the biggest cow. When she went to slaughter she weighed 1720lbs. The others were 1200-1400lbs and not a single one made it to their 3rd calf. And before you ask why she got culled, she finally went to slaughter because she was psycho and we were tired of dealing with her.
There's more to this than the final weight on the scale, and your single-trait selection propaganda is foolish. Smaller mature weights doesn't inherently mean higher efficiency. You can play the "outlier" card all you want, but there's more than enough examples of low mature weight cattle that would also be "a skeleton by the pond" e.g. mini herefords, lowline angus, the entire club calf industry.
Easy doability isn't limited to the 1100lb weight class you're so enamored with.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 21, 2020, 09:58:42 AM
Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  Iíve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.

I guess it would depend on what your cull criteria was.

True, I assumed economically relevant traits were the implicit criteria.   

Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  Iíve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but of the initial group of shorthorn heifers that I bought, the last one standing (because she was the only one to rebreed and calve on time every year) was the biggest cow. When she went to slaughter she weighed 1720lbs. The others were 1200-1400lbs and not a single one made it to their 3rd calf. And before you ask why she got culled, she finally went to slaughter because she was psycho and we were tired of dealing with her.
There's more to this than the final weight on the scale, and your single-trait selection propaganda is foolish. Smaller mature weights doesn't inherently mean higher efficiency. You can play the "outlier" card all you want, but there's more than enough examples of low mature weight cattle that would also be "a skeleton by the pond" e.g. mini herefords, lowline angus, the entire club calf industry.
Easy doability isn't limited to the 1100lb weight class you're so enamored with.

You haven't busted any bubble-- you presented a single anecdote.  And within the genetics you prefer, your experience is understandable as extreme mature cow weight isn't the only thing holding them back from commercial relevance.   Obviously you supplement your cows heavily, as evident by the 1700lber rebreeding, so for 12-1400lbs to be culled exposes an underlying level of dysfunction within your chosen genetics.  Cows that are getting more than their fill nutritionally and still not breeding back? This further exposes the problem with feeding cows like that as it concealed their subfertility.  Which was likely evident by their subfertile biotype to begin with but you don't believe in all that- 

Single trait selection--- Id contend that directly selecting for calving interval takes into consideration about as many traits as could be possibly evaluated.  Provided the cattleman culls based on economically relevant traits, calving interval tells us the whole story.  Cows that have inherent infertility, like those you described, have no calf and cull themselves. Cows with too much bw will either die or the calf will die at birth either way =culled.  If too small, higher chance of dying as well =culled. Not enough calving ease =>dead cows don't wean calves = culls.  Cows that are too big have too high maint requirements and will fail to rebreed =culled.  Cows that milk too much will get too thin and fail to rebreed = culled.   
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: doc-sun on May 21, 2020, 10:37:35 AM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so thereís gotta be something to it
DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT ;)
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Gargan on May 21, 2020, 10:41:07 AM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so thereís gotta be something to it
DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT ;)
The usda should clone him and send 1 to every state...
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 21, 2020, 11:22:28 AM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so thereís gotta be something to it
DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT ;)


One of the biggest issues I'll push for in the commerical acceptance committee is the elimination of Maine influence in the breed.  I'll accomplish this specifically by advocating for Maines to be given their actual SH%, which is zero.   Once they're no longer given any preferential status, they're use will fade rapidly-- I'll make sure and attribute the success of my goal, once accomplished, to you personally. Cheers
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: doc-sun on May 21, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so thereís gotta be something to it
DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT ;)


One of the biggest issues I'll push for in the commerical acceptance committee is the elimination of Maine influence in the breed.  I'll accomplish this specifically by advocating for Maines to be given their actual SH%, which is zero.   Once they're no longer given any preferential status, they're use will fade rapidly-- I'll make sure and attribute the success of my goal, once accomplished, to you personally. Cheers
[/quote
 (lol) AND YOU ACTUALLY THINK THEY WILL LISTEN TO YOU
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 21, 2020, 02:33:18 PM
What about the elimination of the dairy influence-Still see alot of that O0
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Doc on May 21, 2020, 05:18:15 PM
There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.
Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so thereís gotta be something to it
DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT ;)


One of the biggest issues I'll push for in the commerical acceptance committee is the elimination of Maine influence in the breed.  I'll accomplish this specifically by advocating for Maines to be given their actual SH%, which is zero.   Once they're no longer given any preferential status, they're use will fade rapidly-- I'll make sure and attribute the success of my goal, once accomplished, to you personally. Cheers

Good luck with that ! (NOT) Why stop there ?  I for one, am very pleased with my Red Advantage/Red Reward cattle.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: beebe on May 21, 2020, 07:10:21 PM
What about the elimination of the dairy influence-Still see alot of that O0
When you say dairy are you talking the dual purpose cattle?
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: Mtnman on May 26, 2020, 10:45:46 PM
After much thought and consideration I think XBAR must raise coriente. It's the only breed I can think of that meets his criteria, frame 3, 1100 pounders that can survive on dirt with no supplements or inputs.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: mark tenenbaum on May 26, 2020, 11:07:54 PM
From the ones Ive seen on facebook they meet all the criteria other than frame score-sure looked like all they had to eat was dirt to me O0
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 27, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
After much thought and consideration I think XBAR must raise coriente. It's the only breed I can think of that meets his criteria, frame 3, 1100 pounders that can survive on dirt with no supplements or inputs.

   Corriente being the only breed you can think of is a testament to nothing more than your inability to think . There's 4 frame 1100lb cows in every breed there is that can and do sustain year round without grain.
Title: Re: Bulls siring larger frames
Post by: -XBAR- on May 27, 2020, 01:06:27 PM
From the ones Ive seen on facebook they meet all the criteria other than frame score-sure looked like all they had to eat was dirt to me O0

It'll all be burned up by August but they're getting a little more than dirt here end of May