Buying & Selling Embryos

A post in the classifieds got me to thinking about this..  What do most stipulate, guarantees, etc? 

for us it's buy 3 get 1 pregnancy. Buying just 1 no guarantees.

Red

what's the oldest embryo ever implanted that yielded a live calf?

kanshow said:

A post in the classifieds got me to thinking about this..   What do most stipulate, guarantees, etc?   

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I am going to go off on a tangent based on one stipulation I saw. Putting a guarantee on embryos only if they are implanted by a specific person. Would you go for that?

I personally would not. What says that this specific person has a greater chance of getting one to stick than the guy that does ours? Plus what kind of expenses am I going to have to take on to have recips taken across the country or fly this guy in? It does not seem convenient for the buyer, but that's just my opinion.

I'd want to agree on who does the work.

JMO

Red

red said:

I'd want to agree on who does the work.

JMO

Red

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Agree, ABSOLUTELY. Limit the possibilites to 1 specific person based upon the sellers experiences, not for me.

at some point, why don't you just offer for sale a 90 day preg checked pregnant recip with guarantee that calf is who you say it is.

or, just offer a live calf on ground for a price.

what if there is a difference of opinion on quality grade of embryo?

what about quality as it might relate to overstimulated female?

seems like all the protection is going one way?

what about stipulation embryo won't be sold, and that it will be sold with intent to be used this breeding season?

I won't offer guarantees.

An example of what we put in print - Selling 3 eggs with the guarentee of 1 pregnancy if implanted by a certified embryologist. RW

Marketing embryos is a very competitive marketplace. We have been offering a minimum pregnancy rate of 50% at 70 days following implantation, providing an experienced embryo technician is used and normally accepted management is provided. In the past 5 years we have sold approximately 650 embryos to 6 countries, and in this time we have only had two buyers not get a 50% pregnancy rate. One was in England and we sent him an additional embryo in another shipment and he got a calf from it, and he is very happy. The other is a member of SP who purchased two embryos and never got a pregnancy so we are returning his money.

I know we are gambling in offering a guarantee like this, however, I feel that good customer service only leads to more embryo sales. I do not know of anyone else providing teh 50% guarantee but I do know that it has resulted in several sales that may have gone elsewhere. I also feel that buyers are willing to pay more per embryo for the 50% guarantee, which is why we have been able to get some good sales. We also only sell grade 1 embryos and keep any grade 2's for our own use, even though i think I get as good a conception from both grades.

I also strongly believe that the buyer needs to get value for his dollars spent. A happy customer is usually a repeat customer. Last year we sold 10 embryos to a new breeder in Scotland. This year he has 9 calves on the ground and he returned to purchase 10 more embryos. His preg test shows that he has 8 ET calves coming from these embryos. He paid a very good $$$ for the embryos this year ( over $1000 average per embryo) yet he feels he is getting good value.

What does the guarantee amount to?  Keep giving them an embryo until they get a pregnancy?   Money back?  Partial credit?  How long does should the guarantee stay in place and should it follow any line of ownership?  

I personally would not buy an embryo if it had to be put in by one specific person - unless that person is one that I already use.  

I have sold with guarantee and no guarantee, but I think that either buy 3 or 4 with 1 guaranteed if implanted by cert. technician is very reasonable. 

kanshow said:

What does the guarantee amount to?  Keep giving them an embryo until they get a pregnancy?   Money back?  Partial credit?  How long does should the guarantee stay in place and should it follow any line of ownership?  

I personally would not buy an embryo if it had to be put in by one specific person - unless that person is one that I already use.  

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kanshow ..... I am not sure if your question is directed to me or not, but I will answer it anyways.  My guarantee is usually very flexible, and I try to accommodate as close to the buyer's wishes if possible. I would prefer to replace the embryo(s) until a 50% pregnancy is obtained. If the buyer does not want to do this, we try to find another method of settlement. I am not opposed to a credit to be used at a later time for purchase of an animal , a flush, or more embryos. My guarantee only goes to the person to whom they are sold as I have not way of knowing what has happened to the embryos if they have been sold more than once. I have sold over 100 embryos to a dealer in Scotland and he resells most of the embryos to other breeders. I have not offered any guarantee once he has resold them. If he puts them in himself, I offer him the guarantee. So far, I have not heard from anyone who has not had good luck with the embryos.
My guarantee stays in place as long as the embryos have been kept stored. The pregnancy rate has to be determined at 70 days following implantation.

As far as pregnancy rates from older embryos, I have implanted embryos that were collected12 years ago and had good luck with them. I used semen that was collected 45 years ago in two flushes last year. My ET vet said this semen was some of the best quality semen he had seen in years. I think that both semen and embryos remain good for very long periods if they are stored properly.

knabe said:

what's the oldest embryo ever implanted that yielded a live calf?

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im curios of that myself....i have an older egg avaliable...he told me it was old ( green ampule)...he said it would have to be put in with some one with the knowldege of the old style egss...does anyone know what the difference in price and procedure is for impanting an older egg vs a newer one.?  my recip cow is having her second natural in late dec. since her last immplant, i was hopeing my budget would allow for an egg, but wondering if an older egg is alot more  expensive or not....thanks  jbarl

JbarL -- I will give you a quicj summation of what you are trying to ask about your lder embryo.

Up until about 1994 or so, all embryos were frozen in 1.5 molar glycerol (10% if that's easier). Glycerol is toxic to the embryo as is todays preffered method of using Ethylene Glycol.

The difference with the old method were that you MUST thaw the mebryo in a lab environment, revocer from the straw, and using a 3-6 step dilution, go from dish to dish to slowly remove the cryo-protectant and gradually rehydrate the embryo to orginal state. If this was not done correctly -- the embryo's cell would rapidly expand and rupture, killing the embryo and causing it degenerate or explode. We did this for many years -- not the fastest thing to try and do while out in the bush with 50-100 cows waiting. UNless you had a good lab tech that could keep up to the flow of cows, it was a long process.

The results from these embryos were very good for the most part --  I remember getting better results 20 years ago that SOME cows give us today.

The current method of freezing allows for rapid  thaw -- as always, but also -- the embryo will more rapidly expell the cryo-protectant and reabsorb the natural fluids slower than expelling -- a direct reverse from Glycerol. This assures a non-invasive rehydration so that there will be much less cellular damage after thawing. If you were to ever want to see the embryo before transfer -- simply thaw -- expell into a dish and recover directly into the current holding media. Basicly a one step deal.

Many of us today -- myself included, place the embryo in the freezing straw with as little freeze medium as possible -- and fill the rest of the straw fron and back with holding media to help with rapid and complete rehydration in the cow. The sooner the better most will agree.

Hope that helps you out on your question --  trust me -- there isn't very many topics in ET that can be answered with a one liner -- at least not in detail!

Good  luck --

Terry
<cowboy>

My Uncle put in an embryo that he was told was 25 years old, a gelv embryo. It stuck. Not what you would call a modern looking calf, but it was born!
Have a friend putting in some 15 year old embryos this week. They are glycol embryos, so will be interesting to see how that turns out.

When I buy embryos, I will not purchase unless there is a guarantee. Buy 3, get one preg. is standard. I also won't purchase unless there is paper work. I want to know who did the flush, the #1's, #2,'s degenerates, etc. I also want to know what individual did the flush and who, if different, bred the cow.
Reason: I know of a situation where the embryo calf wasn't what it was suppose to be. Without paper work, there would have been no proof of what it was suppose to be. And no way to trace back in the lab.
My uncle (has a recep herd) will not put in embryos if there is no paperwork either. (He does roughly 300 embryos per year. Done it for 10 years or so). His reasons, he can DNA any calf that is in question. He keeps unbelievable records on what cows were with what bulls, and if ANY questions arise, he can DNA anything on his farm and compare it to the paperwork (although he runs completely opposite breeds for a reason!). He can also tell you a history on certain cows, and bulls and pregnancy rates. Some cows' embryos just do not stick. And after a certain failure rate, he will refuse that certain cows embryos. Also, in certain breeds, if payment is a problem, he can use the paperwork to register the calf in his name so he can get some sort of payment back!! This is probably the reason some folks will not buy without paper work, I know that for a fact, as I have some embryos with no paperwork and have been unable to sell them (gave up trying)!

I guess just like in everything....deal with people you know and trust. If in doubt, leave it out!! And if you can not afford to lose the money, leave the money in your pocket!!

Wish you luck in embryo thing.....it literally can make you or break you!

thanks cowboy....thats exactually what i needed to know....i have alot of  hurdles to clear to make this happen....this is not really that big of a problem though, as i will have to take her on a road trip anyway, so it seems to be just a matter  of who and where....  shes in s.e. ohio and i'm looking now for a few possibilities...i dont really have any close proximity options ..so any suggestions on who and where in my area that any one knows woud be helpful.  another question...she is due jan 3rd....what heat or time period would you all suggest to wait and prepare her for an implant ?  can i sync her before i trailer her ?  thanks  again all............jbarl

Show Heifer said:

My Uncle put in an embryo that he was told was 25 years old, a gelv embryo. It stuck. Not what you would call a modern looking calf, but it was born!

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probably had the original paint, some leather and some thickness with a funky head?

In our breed-approved sales, they usually sell the embryos in 3 or 6 packs and there is no guarantees, just that they are all grade 1 and paperwork. I have not heard of guarantees unless they are sold private treaty and you pay quite a lot for them. I guess we are behind!

  Pretty standard in the Shorthorn breed to sell a pack of 2 or 3 with a guarantee of 1 pregnancy if put in by a certified embryologist. Some are starting to put a time cap on when they have to be put in by. Like in 12 to 14 months. I won't buy any eggs unless they have a guarantee , unless I can steal them. I won't buy eggs if they say  only a certain person can put them in. Back when Milestone was selling eggs they use to say only Trans Ova could put them in to get a guarantee. I talked to Verl & got him to agree to my guy to doing it. I refuse to do any business with Trans Ova.