Calving management and practices

What do you suggest?

Yep, sounds like genetics.  Better get out of the breed while you still have your sanity.  For real though, I think you've had a combination of very poor luck.  I can't remember the last time we had a calf over 100 lbs.  Maybe it's something in the water? 

If genetics are 90 to 95 % of it , then I guess the angus bull wasn't as fool proof calving ease as you were led to believe.

Doc said:

If genetics are 90 to 95 % of it , then I guess the angus bull wasn't as fool proof calving ease as you were led to believe.

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(lol) That's a good one, but it wasn't the bull that has the pelvic region that is too small.

Would you say the female is entirely at fault for the calves weighing 115 lbs at birth?  I feel that some of the blame has to lay on the sire as well.  Maybe it is the Shorthorn in them, I don't really know. 

Olson Family Shorthorns said:

Yep, sounds like genetics.  Better get out of the breed while you still have your sanity.  For real though, I think you've had a combination of very poor luck.  I can't remember the last time we had a calf over 100 lbs.  Maybe it's something in the water? 

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I'm not going to get out of the breed, thanks for your thoughtful response.

Here's the deal.  We've had several calves by TM Gus, all of them unassisted.  Have had several El Dorado's. All but one unassisted.  Had lots and lots of Red Diamonds, at least 80% unassisted.  Had quite a few Ar Su Lu Kool, Double Vision, Sonny, and lots of other Shorthorn bulls.  We helped probably 15% of our calves over the last 10 years, some years more, some years virtually none.  Our cows are supplemented until the last trimester with grass hay and soybean hull pellets, as well as mineral and protein tubs.  We feed the cows pretty much all they want once the calves get going in the spring, and then they're out on grass in the summer. 

I'm guessing your grass and grass hay is of a very high protein %, and perhaps you should cull the hard calving lines. 

JTM said:

Doc said:

If genetics are 90 to 95 % of it , then I guess the angus bull wasn't as fool proof calving ease as you were led to believe.

Click to expand...

(lol) That's a good one, but it wasn't the bull that has the pelvic region that is too small.

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So what were their pelvic measurements. If you are saying that all those Gus dtrs had too small of a pelvic then, you must have measured them. Maybe it had something to do with the shape of the calf or the weight or the genetic cross of the BULL on that particular bloodline of cows. What kind of grass are they grazing? Fescue, orchard grass, etc.?

Olson Family Shorthorns said:

Here's the deal.  We've had several calves by TM Gus, all of them unassisted.  Have had several El Dorado's. All but one unassisted.  Had lots and lots of Red Diamonds, at least 80% unassisted.  Had quite a few Ar Su Lu Kool, Double Vision, Sonny, and lots of other Shorthorn bulls.  We helped probably 15% of our calves over the last 10 years, some years more, some years virtually none.  Our cows are supplemented until the last trimester with grass hay and soybean hull pellets, as well as mineral and protein tubs.  We feed the cows pretty much all they want once the calves get going in the spring, and then they're out on grass in the summer. 
I'm guessing your grass and grass hay is of a very high protein %, and perhaps you should cull the hard calving lines. 

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You may be on to something with my hay being high protein. Also, I have been culling the hard calving lines pretty hard. I'm down to like 22 purebred Shorthorns right now compared to 35 a few years ago. Of course, all I have been having is bull calves lately too. 

Doc said:

JTM said:

Doc said:

If genetics are 90 to 95 % of it , then I guess the angus bull wasn't as fool proof calving ease as you were led to believe.

Click to expand...

(lol) That's a good one, but it wasn't the bull that has the pelvic region that is too small.

Click to expand...

So what were their pelvic measurements. If you are saying that all those Gus dtrs had too small of a pelvic then, you must have measured them. Maybe it had something to do with the shape of the calf or the weight or the genetic cross of the BULL on that particular bloodline of cows. What kind of grass are they grazing? Fescue, orchard grass, etc.?

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You may be right Doc. I don't know with certainty what happened. They were on orchard grass pasture. All I'm saying is that the Gus daughters overall didn't perform in a commercial environment like I had hoped they would. When you have so many things that are positively correlated together, you tend to make educated guesses at what could be the problem. The Jake's proud jazz daughters that were bred to this Angus bull all calved unassisted. Even the show genetics jpj bred heifers...

I'm not a big JPJ fan, but our JPJ x Trump cow is wonderful in terms of fleshing ability, maternal instinct, and quality of calf raised.  She has raised two beautiful calves, but both met unfortunate ends.  Her first calf, a gorgeous heifer, got very very sick after weaning, then was fine...and then relapsed and died.  This year's calf was a very very good steer, and we sold him for good money.  The folks we sold him to somehow foundered him.  She gets one more shot, I hope her calf this year doesn't let her down as it would suck to cull such a hard working young lady

Olson Family Shorthorns said:

I'm not a big JPJ fan, but our JPJ x Trump cow is wonderful in terms of fleshing ability, maternal instinct, and quality of calf raised.  She has raised two beautiful calves, but both met unfortunate ends.  Her first calf, a gorgeous heifer, got very very sick after weaning, then was fine...and then relapsed and died.  This year's calf was a very very good steer, and we sold him for good money.  The folks we sold him to somehow foundered him.  She gets one more shot, I hope her calf this year doesn't let her down as it would suck to cull such a hard working young lady

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So you are faulting the cow for those instances with the calves after weaning? Not sure I would go that far.

No, but the heifer calf could be some blame of hers.  She's taking up space that another cow could occupy.  Maybe her calves are susceptible to maladies of all sorts, and they're just unhealthy after a certain age.  Hopefully she dispels all those doubts this year.  I really think she will.

I think calving issues can be hard to figure out especially when genetics, environment, and management all play a role. Finding the right blend of these is oftentimes very hard. As many of you know, I firmly believe there are lots of calving ease genetics in the Shorthorn breed... you just have to look for them and know what to look for. Birth weight is an important factor, but thinks like body shape also have to be condidered. Last spring I assisted one calf at birth, and it was a malpresentation ( upside down, backwards and breach) out of a first calf heifer. I am certain she would have had it herself if it had been presented properly. In the calving season, there were 28 first calf heifers. 27 calves by themselves with live calves. In this group of first calf heifers were 2 heifers from Sullivans and 1 from Cyclone Trace. These heifers were all bred to calving ease sires these firms were using, and they calved easily. I was going through my cows today, and I think all 3 of these females will calve 4-6 weeks earlier in 2013 than they did last year. That is what I like to see in my heifers. I use a wide variety of genetics in my herd including some of the bloodlines that are popular in the US. We had 3 calves weigh over 100 lbs in 2012, at 102, 104 and 105 lbs,. All were from cows and all were unassisted,

I don't think we do anything more special than anyone else, but I am a big believer in my cows and heifers living on high roughage rations and getting exercise. I know it is very hard in may areas to get yoru pregnant females to walk very far prior to calving, but I firmly believe that exercise is one of the secrets to uneventful calving seasons. Of course, it is not the total answer, but I think it sure helps.

What angus bull did you use as fool proof?

16391014

Sounds like my jersey bull sure could have saved you some money 

In the Red Angus.....didn't they decide that Cherokee Canyon daughters had problems calving percentage wise? The epd numbers reflected it. I know about 20 years ago I used a purebred Miane bull. I had 20 or so daughters out of him. His name was Eisenhower. I bet I pulled 80% of those bitches as heifers. It id not matter what you bred them them to they had huge calves. I tried lowline and Angus and evrything but longhorn. So I could see where a certain bulls daughters could be a problem. either by small pelvises or the daughters just have big calves. I lived that nightmare.

as far as heifers go, i have had no problems whatsoever (knock on wood, hope i didnt just jinx myself) since i have pushed first time calving back to 2.5-3 years of age....havent had to pull any, havent had to tie back legs and hold calves up to nurse because heifers were kicking too much or afraid of calves...just seems like at that age, they know what they are supposed to do and do it...and they are developed more and more mature to handle the stress of first time calving  ;D  but as soon as that calf pops out, i will supplement them with grain just to keep them from dropping off, for the first month, then out to pasture they go

the rest of the herd, they are on fescue pasture, get plain jane hay and purina wind and rain mineral, and that is it!  no protein blocks anytime!  things are going alot smoother now!  i used to supplement with grain and protein tubs, and i used to pull alot of calves

thats my experience 

linnettejane said:

as far as heifers go, i have had no problems whatsoever (knock on wood, hope i didnt just jinx myself) since i have pushed first time calving back to 2.5-3 years of age....havent had to pull any, havent had to tie back legs and hold calves up to nurse because heifers were kicking too much or afraid of calves...just seems like at that age, they know what they are supposed to do and do it...and they are developed more and more mature to handle the stress of first time calving  ;D  but as soon as that calf pops out, i will supplement them with grain just to keep them from dropping off, for the first month, then out to pasture they go

the rest of the herd, they are on fescue pasture, get plain jane hay and purina wind and rain mineral, and that is it!  no protein blocks anytime!  things are going alot smoother now!  i used to supplement with grain and protein tubs, and i used to pull alot of calves

thats my experience 

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4 years ago I had 3 c-sections in one year. Vet said its your feed program. So i changed went to protein tubs. Hay only in addition. Grass mix. Again had larger bw than ever before. So for two years we had nothing but huge birth weights. Environmentally had the same weather mix cold and warm spells. Then I changed bulls on all my cows and took show heifers as LJ has to calving at 2.5-3 yrs of age and we did not touch one calf. The bull I use I use on the entire herd. One cow that originates to Bakenhus herd always had calves 100#'s over. Used a well known show bull on her and had 135#'s. Last year she had the smallest calf ever out of OCC genetics. 82#'s. The calves are up and going in minutes and the easiest fleshing calves I have ever had with no creep. I have not fed grain for two years and grass mix alfalfa hay free choice. I am crossing fingers we can have two years in row no assist. This my experience only. I changed both feeding practices and bull. The previous bull had the most popular bloodlines in the show ring today. But he couldn't throw a calf under 100#'s. I truly believe its a delicate balance of feed and genetics.

My neighbor also breeds to calve at 2.5 to 3 years. He never has problems with heifers not milking, not taking their calves, or calving problems. They have done this for 40 years now.