Canada vs U.S. Shorthorn purity

RyanChandler · Oct 3, 2014

I think it depends which population you're talking about. There's likely been many advantages and disadvantages incorporating Maine influence into the US Shorthorn population. I'm sure the lasting impact is no greater than the (CLEARLY) non shorthorn Irish influence cattle had on the Canadian SH population (and US alike).

Just as the non shorthorn influence was visually apparent in the Maine influenced bulls, Mark was referring to, that made their way to Canada, the NON BRITISH influence in the Irish cattle was/is just as apparent.

At the time the herd book opened, I think the Maine influence saved the breed here. From what I read and from seeing the type of SHs (scotch puds) that were prevalent at this time, it's clear the breed needing something to take them in a different direction and FAST.

Now do I think this could have been done using the Canadian Shorthorns? Likely yes... but what about w/o the Irish influence in these Canadian cattle? Likely not. (Are there Canadian SH's out there w/ no Irish?)

Today, with the number of registered SH cattle both in the US and Canada, I see no justification for keeping the herd book open. There is no Fullblood Maine bull that offers me anything that I can't already get in a purebred SH package. The only positive attribute I see in the cattle is their ability to inject substance/growth into their offspring...but like others have said-- "at what cost" (their udders turn me off the most).

Currently, over 40 years after the initial infusions, there is a long long long list of purebred bulls (w/o Irish or maine influence doubtful) that inject more than enough growth for us to still need to be infusing Fullblood Maines.

sue · Oct 3, 2014

Doc said:
sue said:

Troidl Farms said:

Why does the CSA not consider full blood Maines 3/4 shorthorns like the ASA? I was considering purchasing a heifer by Red Reward, but when I checked her percentage with the CSA they told me she is only considered 65.4% shorthorn. Where as with the American shorthorn association she is considered a purebred.

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I have been on the ASA shorthornplus committee for a couple of years: As of Jan 2015, red maine genetics will not come in the books as 3/4 shorthorn. Bulls like Red Reward have or will be grandfathered into the shorthorn . However if you had or have Red Maine matings in the tank or due this spring 2015- well, you have to paper like all the rest. This information can be found on ASA webpage. You can purchase this Red Reward female and become a member of American Shorthorn. In other words "fresh hot new red maine blood " is no longer papering as 3/4 shorthorn. Best of luck

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Sue , I hadn't heard that at all. Where is at on ASA webpage? I just got done looking and must be blind because I couldn't find it anywhere.

November 2013 Shorthorn Country Issue, page 10 and this issue is still on line.

carl · Oct 3, 2014

Maybe I missed something but I don't know how the infusion of Maine blood saved the Shorthorn breed in Canada. Maines were NOT entered in our herdbook at 3/4 percentage so any Maine blood would be pretty diluted by the time it was bred up to purebred status.

coyote · Oct 3, 2014

Another trait that the Maines added to Shorthorns was PHA. When I read on Steerplanet it sounds like the jury is still out on whether it was a positive or negative.

RyanChandler · Oct 3, 2014

To make a distinction for the Maine influenced and not for the Irish influenced seems misleading to me as clearly neither are Shorthorns. They both brought the same thing to the table, the Fullblood Maines just brought it w/ more punch.

ctroidl · Oct 3, 2014

-XBAR- said:
To make a distinction for the Maine influenced and not for the Irish influenced seems misleading to me as clearly neither are Shorthorns. They both brought the same thing to the table, the Fullblood Maines just brought it w/ more punch.

Just curious, what breed were the Irish "shorthorns" that were brought over, I thought I read somewhere on SP that there was some Galloway infusion in the past during one of the world wars but I thought those still consisted of mainly high percentage shorthorns.

mark tenenbaum · Oct 4, 2014

I did an extensive road trip in 1992 looking at Shorthorns in Western (Limerick -east) and Northern Ireland-and was lucky because my better half at the time was English-and could drive on the wrong side of the road etc.The cattle there were MUCH wider made in terms of thier skeletal makeup-IE-HIP AND BUTT-than anything Id seen over here-EXCEPT at Connel Stock Farm-PERIOD-Aside from that they were beutifull pretty fronted cattle-and every one was different.Only a few were as big as the dual influenced cattle over here-which are also "purported to be pure"-Nice to meet you-I erred in my discourse that I am the Archbishop Of Canterbury. When I visited Highfield (McCnally) Deerpark (Edward Quane) Paddy o-Callihan, and Owen Mcniell -it was the same thing.The Irish cattle looked like YOU WISH A SHORTHORN would look like here-they were pretty and unique-just a hell of alot thicker-and had way more variation in small numbers:along with the feaky fronts-and almost flawless structural integrity. As far as the Maines-Ive seen a few pictues on the Fench sites showing TON PLUS sows on milking machines-like the frail Holstiens over here-they werent necessarily used just for growth-albeit SNAKEY-THEY WERE USED FOR THICK O0

librarian · Oct 4, 2014

Please bring me up to speed about continental influence in Irish Shorthorns. My cows have some Irish and they seem plenty thick. Just curious, not contentious.
Chasing type makes more sense to me than chasing purity at this point with Shorthorns. Having said that, the roan in this picture is non asterix all the way back, and has Irish influence. The other one has no Shorthorn in it.

aj · Oct 4, 2014

Selling a purebred to a commercial guy.....is a important factor because the guy will benefit from the heterosis factor. However if you sell somebody a purebred who has a pedigree filled with 70# birth weights and 110# birth weights and all different kinds of colors......and frame scores jumping from 4 to 9.........YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALOT OF UNIFORMITY OF TRAITS.

RyanChandler · Oct 4, 2014

librarian said:
Please bring me up to speed about continental influence in Irish Shorthorns. My cows have some Irish and they seem plenty thick. Just curious, not contentious.
Chasing type makes more sense to me than chasing purity at this point with Shorthorns. Having said that, the roan in this picture is non asterix all the way back, and has Irish influence. The other one has no Shorthorn in it.

First and foremost- The Irish cattle have no pedigrees pre import. JIT has written on a novel on this topic here on sp how they had no accurate records and it's conclusive with the failed parentage test of bulls like Improver. Other than being roan and horned, to me, they don't look like Shorthorns... they look tight hided and coarse, more draft like than a British maternal breed. But with what domestic breeders were working w/, I can see why these undocumented, assumed to be SH because of their color, cattle were appealing... they did bring strong attributes that their no muscle, softer made SH's needed.

Your picture sheds light on how seeing this color pattern doesn't necessarily indicate Shorthorn blood. If you'll look through enough pedigrees (I have 1 cow like this) you'll even come across cattle that were given half blood designation on the basis of "visual inspection." Now, in general, I think the roaning pattern would assert SH blood, but just as your picture shows, that is not necessarily the case. And it's my opinion, that it's not the case with the Irish imports. They may have some SH blood in them, but just as those who've deliberately tried to get rid of the roaning gene know, this is not something that you're just able to completely rid a population of in 1 or 2 generations.... and if there was no objection to the color, it's not something that would ever go away, regardless of how many red factor breeds are brought to the potluck.

HAB · Oct 4, 2014

Librarian is the other animal you pictured a White Galloway cross?

If so, then there is SH blood in it. The White Galloway cattle had SH and or British White influence to achieve the color pattern. That is why they are in a separate herdbook. The cattle were selected for a color pattern, thus amplifying, if you will, those characteristics. A homozygous white Galloway has virtually no dark points appearing like a whitebred shorthorn, with more hair. The roaning pattern shows up in most if not all heterozygous white Galloways .

librarian · Oct 4, 2014

Yes, White Galloway bull crossed on commercial Angus cow
So, if we thought a certain way there would be vestigial Shorthorn on both sides of that cross...and vestigial Galloway in the vestigial Shorthorn...My thought is the British breeds are all related, with regional land races. Obsession with breed purity seems more of an artifact of class hierarchy and colonial arrogance than an genetic truth to me. My interest is historical.

RyanChandler · Oct 4, 2014

phillse said:
In my opinion, At the end of the day, breed purity is a breed association issue. Commercial guys simply want a product that is consistent and performs ie. form and function. Breed purity main purpose is in providing consistency. This can be obtained given that the unpure blood is not up close in the pedigree or linebreeding has occurred to allow for more homogeneous alleles.

Occasionally, the cattle gods will send someone to SP who really gets it (thumbsup)

librarian · Oct 4, 2014

Agreed. What is a breed other than a fixed type?

mark tenenbaum · Oct 4, 2014

-XBAR- said:
librarian said:

Please bring me up to speed about continental influence in Irish Shorthorns. My cows have some Irish and they seem plenty thick. Just curious, not contentious.
Chasing type makes more sense to me than chasing purity at this point with Shorthorns. Having said that, the roan in this picture is non asterix all the way back, and has Irish influence. The other one has no Shorthorn in it.

Click to expand...

First and foremost- The Irish cattle have no pedigrees pre import. JIT has written on a novel on this topic here on sp how they had no accurate records and it's conclusive with the failed parentage test of bulls like Improver. Other than being roan and horned, to me, they don't look like Shorthorns... they look tight hided and coarse, more draft like than a British maternal breed. But with what domestic breeders were working w/, I can see why these undocumented, assumed to be SH because of their color, cattle were appealing... they did bring strong attributes that their no muscle, softer made SH's needed.

Your picture sheds light on how seeing this color pattern doesn't necessarily indicate Shorthorn blood. If you'll look through enough pedigrees (I have 1 cow like this) you'll even come across cattle that were given half blood designation on the basis of "visual inspection." Now, in general, I think the roaning pattern would assert SH blood, but just as your picture shows, that is not necessarily the case. And it's my opinion, that it's not the case with the Irish imports. They may have some SH blood in them, but just as those who've deliberately tried to get rid of the roaning gene know, this is not something that you're just able to completely rid a population of in 1 or 2 generations.... and if there was no objection to the color, it's not something that would ever go away, regardless of how many red factor breeds are brought to the potluck. ///Im going to have to dig up if I can-some of the pictures of Irish Shorthorn cows and hiefers in the field-they bore no resemblence to the descriptions above-and were also very EZ-keeping-If anything-some of the goosier ones looked like deep ribbed dual cattle-EXCEPT-much prettier-and more width from behind: the appearances of tight hided course etc are probably cattle you are viewing at thier shows which are not very well fitted-and have more or less been dragged out of the fields-and "hollowed out " compared to the ones I saw on grass O0

RyanChandler · Oct 4, 2014

How would pics of cattle you saw in '92 have any relevance to the Irish cattle that were infused in the early 70s??

RyanChandler · Oct 4, 2014

librarian said:
Agreed. What is a breed other than a fixed type?

Genotype AND phenotype

librarian · Oct 4, 2014

You mean the Galloway tainted Irish cattle like Improver? The TH was a bad deal, but maybe some of the type the dastardly TH preservationists are selecting for could be acquired by applying some imagination to the total spectrum of traits that came in with Improver and where they might have come from.
Sorry, I'll never mention it again.

mark tenenbaum · Oct 5, 2014

-XBAR- said:
How would pics of cattle you saw in '92 have any relevance to the Irish cattle that were infused in the early 70s??//// I DIDNT SEE THE PICTURES-I TOOK THEM.Because those 4 breeders I visited (Deerpark,Highfield,Shannon,and Ballyart)sent the majority of the cattle that came here-and had continued linebreeding them to that point. Edward Quane was certainly in his 80s then-and told me that they had to have an outcross bull-because they were at the end of the road:after 60 years of very little new blood-At that point Hunsley was reying to get Byland Goldwalk over there but the Irish govt was mad at the US Ag dept. for some reason. O0

librarian · Oct 6, 2014

I would love the opportunity to see any of those pictures, especially since those you visited have probably passed on, with all their wisdom and experience. Even if our ideas are different, we can appreciate and respect the work of those who went before us.

Canada vs U.S. Shorthorn purity

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