Chance of blue roan?

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LLBUX

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Solid black heifer out of Hanibal and Angus/Sim/Maine cow.

She is bred to Jakes Proud Jazz, a roan Shorthorn bull for a March 3 calf.

We bred her hoping for a blue or black roan calf.

What are our chances?    50-50? 

Thanks!

 

kfacres

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This is asuming Hannibal is a blue roan... 

if she's a truly solid black-- 50:50..

if she has one single, 'roan' hair on her...  25% Black, 25% Red Roan, 25% blue roan, 25% white.
 

Cow Chaser

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I would say 50-50, all but one of the blue roans we have had have came out of Maine cows and roan Shorthorn bulls.  We had a bull calf last year that has some roaning but it is not real prominent out of a blue roan cow and a Maine bull.
 

kfacres

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Cow Chaser said:
I would say 50-50, all but one of the blue roans we have had have came out of Maine cows and roan Shorthorn bulls.  We had a bull calf last year that has some roaning but it is not real prominent out of a blue roan cow and a Maine bull.

do you know how the 'roan' gene works? Do you know what a Punnet Square is? 
 

Cow Chaser

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I have seen the punnett square and I am not diagreeing with what you said in the prior post, I'm just going off of our experience.  There is no Shorthorn in his heifers pedigee that i can see.
 

kfacres

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Cow Chaser said:
I have seen the punnett square and I am not diagreeing with what you said in the prior post, I'm just going off of our experience.  There is no Shorthorn in his heifers pedigee that i can see.

That I agree with, after looking hannibal up.. I was for some reason thinking he was a blue roan himself... guess I confused him with the many blue roan sons that are out of DStuff cows...  

but in any case, it does not matter if there is shorthorn in her pedigree-- as the bul is purebred.  She could carry red- which might come out.. especially with the Sim and Maine in there...
 

LLBUX

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More info to muddy the waters-

The heifer's mom would have been about 5/8 Angus, 1/4 Maine and 1/8 Simmental.    All of her past calves have been black and polled.

We used JPJ for a live and marketable calf that could show up as a blue roan.  Heifer is real straight, just too tall to be accepted widely in the club calf world.

Next year's calf will be another odd-ball.  Breeding her Beltie!
 

kfacres

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LLBUX said:
More info to muddy the waters-

The heifer's mom would have been about 5/8 Angus, 1/4 Maine and 1/8 Simmental.    All of her past calves have been black and polled.

We used JPJ for a live and marketable calf that could show up as a blue roan.  Heifer is real straight, just too tall to be accepted widely in the club calf world.

Next year's calf will be another odd-ball.  Breeding her Beltie!

water is more a yellow pee color...  what's the maine and sim breeding more specifically.. not that it matters, it's pretty deep back.. and quite honestly- it's just guesses anyways.
 

leanbeef

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Breed & color are not the same thing. Knowing a breed can SOMETIMES point toward some assumptions we might be able to make about color genetics, but it's pretty impossible to predict colors and especially patterns, out of some of these crosses we have now. If more people understood some pretty basic rules about color genetics, I think less people would be as surprised (or maybe disappointed) when they don't get what they want or expect or hope to get.

If this cow is solid black and never had a red calf (and even if she isn't "solid black" but black, not red), then there's no reason to think she might have a red gene. Yes...there could be red blood coming from the Maine or Simmental pedigrees, then it's possible that she might, but no amount of white hair, whether it's one hair or most of her body, or roan or spots or zebra stripes, predicts that she might be a carrier for a red gene. The genes that determine whether an animal is black or red are not connected to the genes that determine the pattern (i.e. spotted hides, roaning, white faces, blaze faces, white feet, etc.) You know a black animal is a carrier for red if either (1) she has one red parent, (2) because she has produced a red calf, or (3) because you've DNA tested her. Otherwise, it's a guess, and you're best guess has to be based on probabilities and heritability and everything you know about her pedigree and/or her production.

Unless she's always been mated to homozygous black bulls in the past, and depending on how many black calves she has produced out of red or heterozygous black sires, it seems there might be a decent chance the cow is homozygous black. If that is the case, then mated to a red roan Shorthorn bull will give you a 50% chance of making a blue roan calf, and a 50% chance of a black (not roan) calf. My guess is that, with the Simmental + Maine background, she could easily have some kind of recessive spotting gene, so that might add to the anticipation and the unpredictability of what you might expect.
 

kfacres

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leanbeef said:
Breed & color are not the same thing. Knowing a breed can SOMETIMES point toward some assumptions we might be able to make about color genetics, but it's pretty impossible to predict colors and especially patterns, out of some of these crosses we have now. If more people understood some pretty basic rules about color genetics, I think less people would be as surprised (or maybe disappointed) when they don't get what they want or expect or hope to get.

If this cow is solid black and never had a red calf (and even if she isn't "solid black" but black, not red), then there's no reason to think she might have a red gene. Yes...there could be red blood coming from the Maine or Simmental pedigrees, then it's possible that she might, but no amount of white hair, whether it's one hair or most of her body, or roan or spots or zebra stripes, predicts that she might be a carrier for a red gene. The genes that determine whether an animal is black or red are not connected to the genes that determine the pattern (i.e. spotted hides, roaning, white faces, blaze faces, white feet, etc.) You know a black animal is a carrier for red if either (1) she has one red parent, (2) because she has produced a red calf, or (3) because you've DNA tested her. Otherwise, it's a guess, and you're best guess has to be based on probabilities and heritability and everything you know about her pedigree and/or her production.

Unless she's always been mated to homozygous black bulls in the past, and depending on how many black calves she has produced out of red or heterozygous black sires, it seems there might be a decent chance the cow is homozygous black. If that is the case, then mated to a red roan Shorthorn bull will give you a 50% chance of making a blue roan calf, and a 50% chance of a black (not roan) calf. My guess is that, with the Simmental + Maine background, she could easily have some kind of recessive spotting gene, so that might add to the anticipation and the unpredictability of what you might expect.
other than sun bleached...  thoughts on tinged black, likely carry the red factor?
 

leanbeef

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No...Black is dominant...red is recessive. I don't think there's any question about shared dominance there. I do wonder what causes the brown blacks...I've heard it can be from trace mineral deficiencies. I think sun bleaching...just like our hair bleaches if we stay in the sun a lot. But baby calves that are born more brown than black...I've heard people talk about certain bulls throwing calves like that, and I was skeptical about there being a genetic link like that, but I happened to have bought a cow that was carrying a calf by this bull, and a buddy told me they would all be brown. And he is. Like REALLY brown. Genetically, I know he's black, and I expect he'll grow up and shed out black, but he's brown now. Not red...but not really BLACK black. Not really a big deal, I guess, but I personally don't really like it. I prefer em to be black black. Like a crow! lol

There is another gene that causes some funny coloration. You'll see it in Chi crosses...THAT brown is a result of what is called the "wild type" gene. Jerseys have it. Brahmans. Chianina. I suspect all those white or fawn-colored cattle with the black points...that would be the homozygous state. Crossed with a black you get phenotypic black because black is still dominant, but genetically the animal isn't what they call a "true black" and is considered neither homozygous nor heterozygous...just "not a true black". Crossed with red you can get tiger stripes or brindle, like you see in a lot of Brafords.
 

kfacres

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leanbeef said:
No...Black is dominant...red is recessive. I don't think there's any question about shared dominance there. I do wonder what causes the brown blacks...I've heard it can be from trace mineral deficiencies. I think sun bleaching...just like our hair bleaches if we stay in the sun a lot. But baby calves that are born more brown than black...I've heard people talk about certain bulls throwing calves like that, and I was skeptical about there being a genetic link like that, but I happened to have bought a cow that was carrying a calf by this bull, and a buddy told me they would all be brown. And he is. Like REALLY brown. Genetically, I know he's black, and I expect he'll grow up and shed out black, but he's brown now. Not red...but not really BLACK black. Not really a big deal, I guess, but I personally don't really like it. I prefer em to be black black. Like a crow! lol

There is another gene that causes some funny coloration. You'll see it in Chi crosses...THAT brown is a result of what is called the "wild type" gene. Jerseys have it. Brahmans. Chianina. I suspect all those white or fawn-colored cattle with the black points...that would be the homozygous state. Crossed with a black you get phenotypic black because black is still dominant, but genetically the animal isn't what they call a "true black" and is considered neither homozygous nor heterozygous...just "not a true black". Crossed with red you can get tiger stripes or brindle, like you see in a lot of Brafords.

my questioning stems from the mating of Angus/ Shorthorns at our place... which obviously carry the red gene...  In almost every case- they come out brown, and stay so.. some when bleached in the summer- also look dang neared red... 

I have been to places, where they've go the 'browns'-- but also have some reds...  I always just assumed so...
 

leanbeef

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Cut the BS said:
leanbeef said:
No...Black is dominant...red is recessive. I don't think there's any question about shared dominance there. I do wonder what causes the brown blacks...I've heard it can be from trace mineral deficiencies. I think sun bleaching...just like our hair bleaches if we stay in the sun a lot. But baby calves that are born more brown than black...I've heard people talk about certain bulls throwing calves like that, and I was skeptical about there being a genetic link like that, but I happened to have bought a cow that was carrying a calf by this bull, and a buddy told me they would all be brown. And he is. Like REALLY brown. Genetically, I know he's black, and I expect he'll grow up and shed out black, but he's brown now. Not red...but not really BLACK black. Not really a big deal, I guess, but I personally don't really like it. I prefer em to be black black. Like a crow! lol

There is another gene that causes some funny coloration. You'll see it in Chi crosses...THAT brown is a result of what is called the "wild type" gene. Jerseys have it. Brahmans. Chianina. I suspect all those white or fawn-colored cattle with the black points...that would be the homozygous state. Crossed with a black you get phenotypic black because black is still dominant, but genetically the animal isn't what they call a "true black" and is considered neither homozygous nor heterozygous...just "not a true black". Crossed with red you can get tiger stripes or brindle, like you see in a lot of Brafords.

my questioning stems from the mating of Angus/ Shorthorns at our place... which obviously carry the red gene...  In almost every case- they come out brown, and stay so.. some when bleached in the summer- also look dang neared red... 

I have been to places, where they've go the 'browns'-- but also have some reds...  I always just assumed so...


Yeah...I dunno that. That's a question for somebody who knows more about the subject than I do, and specifically maybe about Shorthorn genetics. But I see brown calves in purebred Angus and Simmental, too... Genetically they're black and will shed out black later on. The cows with brown backs I contribute to sun bleaching. Or maybe there is something to the mineral deficiency thing...I think it's copper deficiency I heard makes them look brown...but don't hold me to that.
 
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