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Author Topic: Charolais Bulls  (Read 11687 times)

Offline CAB

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2008, 08:49:53 AM »
   Good morning Mark. I'm not promoting the bull named George other than the fact that I like his look. Kris Black owns George along with a or numerous partners and they will get along fine with the bull I'm sure. I am mainly a club calf producer that loves all types of cattle and cattle PPL. Look of coarse is important to the clubbie business, but I'll be 1 of the first to say that some don't grow well enough and there maybe some calving issues with a handfull or 2 of the sires. Do what you like to do and I'll appreciate it. Brent

Offline chambero

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2008, 10:08:56 AM »
Mark:

None of us were trying to "promote" the George bull.  Someone mentioned a high-selling 3/4 blood that recently sold by Kris Black and I happened to mention that I was using one of his purebred bulls that sold last year "George".  Then folks started asking questions about him.

Why the interest?  Because they are very good, proven cattle from him for lots of purposes, not just steers.  I would assume if you are a Charolais guy that you are familiar with the HooDoo cattle.  They were developed for purely commercial purposes as far as I know.  As I understand, Kris was one of the first ones figure out that their cattle added a little real performance and didn't hurt the look when crossed on the show steer bloodlines.  The HooDoo bulls are good, the females are good, and the steers are good.  They are about as proven as can be.  Many, many big Charolais breeders in our part of the world (Texas and Oklahoma) use them just for commercial purposes.

As far as an individual animal goes, I put a lot more stock into what people I trust tell me than any EPD.  And when Kris tells me a bull is good, I believe it.  Could he be wrong, of course, but he's right a lot more than wrong.   I don't know what the EPDs are on George, but common sense tells me they are probably solid - which all any EPD is really worth.  People put way too much credence and spend way too much money just on small variations in those numbers in all breeds.

I don't think its irresponsible in any way to tell someone else what we are doing.  I don't think any of us told the original poster they need to use any specific bull.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2008, 05:00:56 PM »
The HooDoo cattle will not have very impresssive EPD'S because of there herd being a closed herd where they just use their own genetic's .  But because of this they have more consistancy than a lot of herd's. they never tried to have the record  growth that some of the breeder's raised.   The Eaton's Charolais in Montana are also a herd with very little outside genetics in their herd , but bred for more growth an very good EPD'S.

Offline Mark H

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2008, 10:54:13 PM »
OK,
Here is the answer to some of the questions asked here.  I merely pointed out the black heifer because she is unusual not because like her.  Despite the efforts of many people their are few "black" Charolais. this heifer is merely a curiosity.  By the way the big problems with the black and red Charolais is showing plenty of white (white faces even) and lack of muscle.  The red and black cattle I am familiar with have average to well above average EPDs.  They also can be harder calving.  The biggest problem for both the reds and blacks is lack of genetic diversity.  Many white bulls are used on red and black cows for this reason.  In the end the red Charolais stock bull is sold to the same guy that may use a Limo, a Blonde D'Aquitaine  or a Maine Anjou.  These cattle were used to open up new markets since the Charolais is 60% of the bull market in Canada.
 EPDs are not perfect by any means.  They have problems the average animal science graduate never hears about.  I don't have the space here to go into it.  Just remember an EPD is just the most likely genetic worth of an animal, it is not a deterministic number.  Thus is why I like individual performance numbers and ratios as well.  Ideally I also like progeny test data on commercial  cows to even out the playing field and find out how the bull crosses on other breeds.  But keep this in mind EPDs are a large step forward in comparing the genetic worth of two animals in a given breed.  EPDs are the only way cross herd comparisons can be objectively made.  A flawed tool is better than no tool at all.
I am talking about Canadian bulls because I have seen the animals and know the breeders stand behind their cattle. I also was raised up there.  The Charolais is the leading breed in Canada. American Charolais breeders are now becoming more performance oriented with their talikng over the the Conception to Consumer program.  Put George on that program and see how he stacks up against other bulls in the breed on grade cows.

Mark

Offline Longway Ranch - SK, Canada

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2008, 11:10:43 PM »
The Charolais is the leading breed in Canada.

Mark


I just cant let you get away with this.  Come again?  Are you serious?
Longway Ranch - SK, Canada
306-730-7822

Offline frostback

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2008, 04:23:48 PM »
You know I am computer challenged so I hope this works. I looked and looked for a good photo that shows the average typical feedlot in Alberta and this photo was about as close as I could find. Notice you cannot see many blacks in the background. I would agree with Marks assessment of 60% of cattle are Charolais influenced. I can think of many large operations that have Simmi cows and use Char bulls. Or Black cows and use Char bulls.  Also the last time I was up there the Simmis were still traditional colours of Red and yellow with white. Frostie
http://amisinterag.com/wp-content/gallery/feedlots/normal_beef_pen01a.jpg
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 04:27:47 PM by frostback »
Some peoples true character only comes out in PMs.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2008, 04:56:01 PM »
You made my day , I'm glad to see the people in Canada still use the Charolais, first thing Ithought of is maybe that is why the Packers fight so hard to import those cattle from Canada cause there is not many that use them in our area, every thing is black an weve done our very best to ruin them to .

Offline Mark H

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2008, 10:36:12 PM »
Frosty,

In Canada a cow calf man with out a Charolais bull is like a dog with out a bone.  The Charolais bull is the way you improve your income from your calves by at least $ 75.00 a head.  The herd book is reduced in size since total herd reporting came in but medicore animals that never will produce a bull or a decent replacement had their papers sent in rather an pay the yearly fee.  Breeds that have a pay once and in for life system have plenty of cows that aren't contributing to the breed and should have been knocked off the registry long ago.
Some interesting information on the accuracy of EPDs versus phenotype was done by the Canadian Charolais Association check it out at: http://www.charolais.com/pdf/EPD%20to%20Phenotype%20Growth.pdf
and http://www.charolais.com/pdf/EPD%20to%20Phenotype%20Carcass.pdf.  What other breed publishes this sort of information?  The fact that they do so points to their leadership in the beef industry.
An other interesting thing about the status of the Angus breed in Canada:  The Red Angus is half the herd book.  With out Red Angus the Angus association would be much smaller.  As it is the Angus Association doesn't own the building it occupies unlike the Charolais or Hereford associations.  The red Angus is used on high percentage grade Charolais cows and heifers for calving ease and to make them not so white.  The Red Angus owes its growth in large part to the existence of Charolais cross cows and heifers that need an easy calving outcross but already have enough milk (Simmental).

Mark

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Charolais Bulls
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2008, 11:36:07 PM »
[quote author=Mark H link=topic=7039.msg80690#msg80690 date=122663377
Its because there is no CAB program in CA that mandates that cattle be black or face price discrepencies. CAB revolutionized/ruined/changed/ (Insert your preference) the US beef industry. If not for the success of the CAB program the same could be said about the American Angus Association YEARS ago. Took 'em from the bottom to the top in one fail swoop.


Frosty,
In Canada a cow calf man with out a Charolais bull is like a dog with out a bone.  The Charolais bull is the way you improve your income from your calves by at least $ 75.00 a head.  The herd book is reduced in size since total herd reporting came in but medicore animals that never will produce a bull or a decent replacement had their papers sent in rather an pay the yearly fee.  Breeds that have a pay once and in for life system have plenty of cows that aren't contributing to the breed and should have been knocked off the registry long ago.
Some interesting information on the accuracy of EPDs versus phenotype was done by the Canadian Charolais Association check it out at: http://www.charolais.com/pdf/EPD%20to%20Phenotype%20Growth.pdf
and http://www.charolais.com/pdf/EPD%20to%20Phenotype%20Carcass.pdf.  What other breed publishes this sort of information?  The fact that they do so points to their leadership in the beef industry.
An other interesting thing about the status of the Angus breed in Canada:  The Red Angus is half the herd book.  With out Red Angus the Angus association would be much smaller.  As it is the Angus Association doesn't own the building it occupies unlike the Charolais or Hereford associations.  The red Angus is used on high percentage grade Charolais cows and heifers for calving ease and to make them not so white.  The Red Angus owes its growth in large part to the existence of Charolais cross cows and heifers that need an easy calving outcross but already have enough milk (Simmental).

Mark
[/quote]

 

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