Charolais Bulls

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Mark H

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Hello,

I have read some of the posts here and most of the bulls being recomended are unproven at best any some are percentage bulls with no performance information such as birth weights, weaning weights, etc.  In such a situation you are a Guinea pig.  I can not make any recommendation of a specific proven bull until I know the cows breeding and areas that need improvement.  Anything less would be irresponsible in my opinion.
Just so you understand where I am coming from here are some of the outstanding Charolais bulls around:
For a dark Red Bull HEJ Ripped is the best from a confirmation and performance background.  No real comparison here. Check him out at www.hejcharolais.com.  For a tan bull I like GDSF RU REDY.  Nice calves and performance to burn.  Wells has all the American red bulls noted in replies to this post.
For all around impact on the breed LT Rio Blanco is as good as it gets as far as performance, confirmation and market acceptance are concerned.  He is a  safe choice on any unrelated cow.
If it is the show ring you are concerned about Voegeli Bros.  Is an excellent resource on what works and what does not.  Good results from MXS Vermilion check him out at: http://www.voegelibros.com/.  Look at this calf as a herd sire prospect-the result of an accident: http://www.charolaisbanner.com/cat08/sterling/3.htm.
Hope this helps:

Mark
 

chambero

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That isn't the same one.  The one Kris sold last year is out of Hoo Doo Prince.  Don't know how two of them ended up with the same name and both from Hoodoo breeding. 

Attached is the best I can find of him.
 

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CAB

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Thank you very much Robert. Are you using any George this fall or are you going to use more YJ or both? Brent
 

chambero

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I'm breeding about 10 cows to each.  I'm using George on some of our straighter made, clubbier looking cows and Yellow Jacket on some first cross cows (crossbred females out of Angus cows).  By the way, I did a little more digging and wound up taking a lot of your advice on the black bulls.  We put CIDRs in this coming Sunday.
 

Throttle

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Mark H said:
If it is the show ring you are concerned about Voegeli Bros.  Is an excellent resource on what works and what does not.  Good results from MXS Vermilion check him out at: http://www.voegelibros.com/.  Look at this calf as a herd sire prospect-the result of an accident: http://www.charolaisbanner.com/cat08/sterling/3.htm.
Hope this helps:

Mark

Hey Mark - Some of those bulls look great. That sale catalog is impressive as well. The lot 1 bull looks the part to me. Let me ask you this, if you had to choose just one bull for show cattle production which one would it be? Vermillion, his new son Kaboom, Freedom, others? Keep in mind, I'm looking at the midwestern US show steer business. I'm gonna flush a black 3/8 Maine Chill Factor daughter to a Char this winter. I'm looking for the PB Char bull that will throw the best hip structure and rib shape while being as smooth shouldered and tight throated as possible, without sacrificing hair, and keeping an eye on BW (though other than BW, the epd #'s aren't of much concern to me). Is it possible? I'm hoping to make females this generation that will make smooth enough made mother cows to breed to steer bulls like Heatwave and his sons, or breed to the Dr. Who types for clubby heifers. I also think that these Char/Maine/Angus crosses should be good for Char Composite show heifers from this 1st generation cross as well. What do you think?
 

Freddy

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No one has mentioned the Fastrack bull who has been around quite a long time  ,or his Daddy Unlimited Ease who also has a very good record an both of these bulls are known for excellent calving ease . The first picture is of a son of Fastrack that we are using the second year .  Proven heifer bull ,good disposition an look to have alot of muscle an eye appeal. with moderate frame.                  Someone mentioned how good the RIO BRAVO cattle are an we have a son that we are using the first time this year .  Our partners on this bull are showing him some , an sure he will be showing in Louisville under Millstone Charolais ... Limited amount of semen on these two bulls. I just ordered some George an Troubador semen an excited about using it.  Might use some of the Troubador on some Angus cow's.
 

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Mark H

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CAB,
Do youi have any EPDs on any of the cattle you are promoting like the 'George' calf? I need EPDs and weights, ratios, dam capability etc before i will do a look at a bulls confirmation.  I am very picky on bull selection-even if I am going to freshen a milk cow for the house.
Another interesting sale catalog link: http://www.charolaisbanner.com/cat08/abfallharvest/index.htm.  Note the purebred black Charolais heifer and some good quality red factor females.  Also some french influence heifers.
I am a performance oriented guy that likes a nice looking animal.  But why compromise?  I want the most marketable cattle I can get and that means selling bulls to commercial producers that produce consistent imprement on grade cows.  I don't pray for the "great one".
Bulls that may work in the clubby deal are  from Voelgeli Bros are HFCC PLD Evolution and MXS  Vermillion.  Ask dennis what will work on specific cows.  Hendrik Rasmaussen (HEJ Charolais) know how to produce a winner either red or white in the ring.  A french bull I like but tough to get semen on is Impair.  This Full French bull has good EPDs and has done well with progeny in the ring from Rosso Charolais. But semen is $130 a straw.
A bloodline you should look at is the projector line.  This line is popular in Alberta with commercial men and they put out plenty of market topping steers.  Check out Stauffers: http://www.stauffercharolais.com/ .  Note the Fear no Evil and Made Easy bulls.
I only have recommend bulls and breeders that have averages of around $ 3,000 on yearling bulls and have maternal power.  You have to sell them all, not just a few steers that make the grade.
Hope this helps.

Mark

 

usu265

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mark h that black charolais heifer is absolutely terrible. i've only ever seen a few black charolais in my day and in my opinion they are a disgrace to the breed... not because they're black, because they are some of the worst cattle i've ever seen, confirmation and number wise. where do you live? you seem to be promoting a lot of canadian genetics? i'm not trying to bash your opinions just asking some questions. what other canadian breeders would you consider having good genetics? how about harvie ranching, new country or a. sparrow farms? do any of these farms have bulls that would work on either clubby or commercial herds?
 

CAB

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  Good morning Mark. I'm not promoting the bull named George other than the fact that I like his look. Kris Black owns George along with a or numerous partners and they will get along fine with the bull I'm sure. I am mainly a club calf producer that loves all types of cattle and cattle PPL. Look of coarse is important to the clubbie business, but I'll be 1 of the first to say that some don't grow well enough and there maybe some calving issues with a handfull or 2 of the sires. Do what you like to do and I'll appreciate it. Brent
 

chambero

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Mark:

None of us were trying to "promote" the George bull.  Someone mentioned a high-selling 3/4 blood that recently sold by Kris Black and I happened to mention that I was using one of his purebred bulls that sold last year "George".  Then folks started asking questions about him.

Why the interest?  Because they are very good, proven cattle from him for lots of purposes, not just steers.  I would assume if you are a Charolais guy that you are familiar with the HooDoo cattle.  They were developed for purely commercial purposes as far as I know.  As I understand, Kris was one of the first ones figure out that their cattle added a little real performance and didn't hurt the look when crossed on the show steer bloodlines.  The HooDoo bulls are good, the females are good, and the steers are good.  They are about as proven as can be.  Many, many big Charolais breeders in our part of the world (Texas and Oklahoma) use them just for commercial purposes.

As far as an individual animal goes, I put a lot more stock into what people I trust tell me than any EPD.  And when Kris tells me a bull is good, I believe it.  Could he be wrong, of course, but he's right a lot more than wrong.  I don't know what the EPDs are on George, but common sense tells me they are probably solid - which all any EPD is really worth.  People put way too much credence and spend way too much money just on small variations in those numbers in all breeds.

I don't think its irresponsible in any way to tell someone else what we are doing.  I don't think any of us told the original poster they need to use any specific bull.
 

Freddy

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The HooDoo cattle will not have very impresssive EPD'S because of there herd being a closed herd where they just use their own genetic's .  But because of this they have more consistancy than a lot of herd's. they never tried to have the record  growth that some of the breeder's raised.  The Eaton's Charolais in Montana are also a herd with very little outside genetics in their herd , but bred for more growth an very good EPD'S.
 

Mark H

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OK,
Here is the answer to some of the questions asked here.  I merely pointed out the black heifer because she is unusual not because like her.  Despite the efforts of many people their are few "black" Charolais. this heifer is merely a curiosity.  By the way the big problems with the black and red Charolais is showing plenty of white (white faces even) and lack of muscle.  The red and black cattle I am familiar with have average to well above average EPDs.  They also can be harder calving.  The biggest problem for both the reds and blacks is lack of genetic diversity.  Many white bulls are used on red and black cows for this reason.  In the end the red Charolais stock bull is sold to the same guy that may use a Limo, a Blonde D'Aquitaine  or a Maine Anjou.  These cattle were used to open up new markets since the Charolais is 60% of the bull market in Canada.
EPDs are not perfect by any means.  They have problems the average animal science graduate never hears about.  I don't have the space here to go into it.  Just remember an EPD is just the most likely genetic worth of an animal, it is not a deterministic number.  Thus is why I like individual performance numbers and ratios as well.  Ideally I also like progeny test data on commercial  cows to even out the playing field and find out how the bull crosses on other breeds.  But keep this in mind EPDs are a large step forward in comparing the genetic worth of two animals in a given breed.  EPDs are the only way cross herd comparisons can be objectively made.  A flawed tool is better than no tool at all.
I am talking about Canadian bulls because I have seen the animals and know the breeders stand behind their cattle. I also was raised up there.  The Charolais is the leading breed in Canada. American Charolais breeders are now becoming more performance oriented with their talikng over the the Conception to Consumer program.  Put George on that program and see how he stacks up against other bulls in the breed on grade cows.

Mark
 

Bawndoh

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Mark H said:
The Charolais is the leading breed in Canada.

Mark

I just cant let you get away with this.  Come again?  Are you serious?
 

frostback

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You know I am computer challenged so I hope this works. I looked and looked for a good photo that shows the average typical feedlot in Alberta and this photo was about as close as I could find. Notice you cannot see many blacks in the background. I would agree with Marks assessment of 60% of cattle are Charolais influenced. I can think of many large operations that have Simmi cows and use Char bulls. Or Black cows and use Char bulls.  Also the last time I was up there the Simmis were still traditional colours of Red and yellow with white. Frostie
http://amisinterag.com/wp-content/gallery/feedlots/normal_beef_pen01a.jpg
 

Freddy

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You made my day , I'm glad to see the people in Canada still use the Charolais, first thing Ithought of is maybe that is why the Packers fight so hard to import those cattle from Canada cause there is not many that use them in our area, every thing is black an weve done our very best to ruin them to .
 

Mark H

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Frosty,

In Canada a cow calf man with out a Charolais bull is like a dog with out a bone.  The Charolais bull is the way you improve your income from your calves by at least $ 75.00 a head.  The herd book is reduced in size since total herd reporting came in but medicore animals that never will produce a bull or a decent replacement had their papers sent in rather an pay the yearly fee.  Breeds that have a pay once and in for life system have plenty of cows that aren't contributing to the breed and should have been knocked off the registry long ago.
Some interesting information on the accuracy of EPDs versus phenotype was done by the Canadian Charolais Association check it out at: http://www.charolais.com/pdf/EPD%20to%20Phenotype%20Growth.pdf
and http://www.charolais.com/pdf/EPD%20to%20Phenotype%20Carcass.pdf.  What other breed publishes this sort of information?  The fact that they do so points to their leadership in the beef industry.
An other interesting thing about the status of the Angus breed in Canada:  The Red Angus is half the herd book.  With out Red Angus the Angus association would be much smaller.  As it is the Angus Association doesn't own the building it occupies unlike the Charolais or Hereford associations.  The red Angus is used on high percentage grade Charolais cows and heifers for calving ease and to make them not so white.  The Red Angus owes its growth in large part to the existence of Charolais cross cows and heifers that need an easy calving outcross but already have enough milk (Simmental).

Mark
 
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