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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2009, 08:10:10 AM »
Back in the good old days (when you didn't have calves that were born crippled) we  had shows that the entire animal was judged. If the politics weren't too overwhelming the animals that were the most complete ie - most muscle, correct finish, structurally correct, etc etc won shows. Today it's a who's the widest, 52 inch steer that has been through the right hands contest. In an Ideal world all of the calves produced from terminal sire would be hanging on the rail at 16 months but that doesn't happen, which is the exact reason why steers need to be able to walk. The real truth is that there are females kept in herd and sold to other herds out of the terminal sires, not to mention the sons that are sold as bulls to commercial herds. The whole theory of "as long as he has an ass as wide as an old maid school teacher and can make it in from tie outs" is BS in my oppinion. When these genetics are contained strictly to the show steer game as steers or market heifers is when the structural soundness issues will no longer be an issue.RW
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Offline Carm

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2009, 08:21:50 AM »
If the argument is that unsound steers could still make the best end product, why show live steers at all? Why not just have carcass competitions.

All steers, even if bred to be terminal, have a dam and sire that were breeding animals.  If you have a steer that is unsound he must have gotten it from one of his parents.   If both parents are sound, as breeding animals should be, they should not be able to create too unsound of a calf.

Offline simtal

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2009, 08:27:26 AM »
I agree the comparison involving steers and their heifer mates (and longevity, etc...) is weak.  This clubby heifer by-product (much like barrows that come from maternal lines in pigs) aren't made to be cows.   Isn't the ideal club calf momma today bred to be really maternal anyway (think 734 or ohlde)? You don't go buy these "shoulda been a steer" deals for cows, just like you don't buy a dump truck to commute to work.  Don't blame the exhibitors of these cattle for something that's beyond their control.  
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Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2009, 12:39:24 PM »
Well Road Warrior the good ol' days are never quite as good as they are remembered, are they?  Are you referring to the good ol' days of the Angus association running their famous "Elephant" ads when their bulls were bigger than anyone's ? The days where the cattle were ten framed and appeared to be on stilts and had no body or muscle? Those good ol' days? Or are you referring to the good REALLY ol' days of belt buckle size cattle that spawned dwarfism?

 I clearly stated that I didn't mean cattle that were too uncomfortable to walk, so if you think the theory you quoted is "BS",  in your opinion, why would you give such a BS reason as the premise of your belief? The real truth is that the " females that are kept in the herd and sold out to other herds" and "the sons that are sold out to commercial herds" are the poor decisions of some producer. The steer that is in the ring or the exhibitor that leads him in the ring should bear no responsibility for YOUR poor decision or calculated risk taken. Sounds like the democratic party  that shuns self accountability and wants me to handle the burden of poor decisions made by others .

Offline DLD

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2009, 01:59:09 PM »
I won't try to deny that the steer show ring is a long ways away from the "industry" these days, but it's pretty far out in left field to believe that what happens there has no effect whatsoever on the rest of the industry.  Pretty much every breed has it's own issues with too straight, tight wound, short striding cattlle - granted we're coming away from it faster in the "breeding stock" than in the "clubbies", but no matter where it's coming from, it manages to trickle down.  You're only kidding yourself if you believe there aren't Heat Wave daughters in production, all the way from well known and respected breeders who know exactly what they have and what they're doing with them, to good ol' farmer John out west of town who picks up a few replacement heifers at the same sale barn that your neighbor sells his leftover clubbies at. 

Regardless of how close or far away you think the show ring is from the "industry", they're still supposed to be lined up according to quality, and soundness is a really big part of that.  There's no shortage of steers that will grade and yield plenty well, and that are attractive and still sound to necessitate using a "cripple", at least not at the shows I frequent (mostly in OK and TX) anyway.  There are too many good complete ones out there for there to be any reason to accept anything less.

As far as the original subject goes,  I don't have anything against cloning or using clones in general, but I do agree that doing so is not promoting progress - from the genetics of the cowherd to the showring, it just leaves the repeat button stuck on.  The one new clone that interests me is Houston - at least he's something new. 

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Offline Dusty

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2009, 02:50:00 PM »
I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the prescence of clones in the cattle industry, particularly show cattle.  There are a lot more clones than people know about that are brewing right now.  Not only clones of bulls, but clones of cows, clones of steers to be bulls and clones of steers to be shown as steers.  It is going to be interesting to see where this all goes 5 yrs from now.
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Offline herefordfootball

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2009, 02:54:56 PM »
National Western Stock Show: THE CLONE WARS

Enter Star Wars Music
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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2009, 04:41:43 PM »
Well Road Warrior the good ol' days are never quite as good as they are remembered, are they?  Are you referring to the good ol' days of the Angus association running their famous "Elephant" ads when their bulls were bigger than anyone's ? The days where the cattle were ten framed and appeared to be on stilts and had no body or muscle? Those good ol' days? Or are you referring to the good REALLY ol' days of belt buckle size cattle that spawned dwarfism?

 I clearly stated that I didn't mean cattle that were too uncomfortable to walk, so if you think the theory you quoted is "BS",  in your opinion, why would you give such a BS reason as the premise of your belief? The real truth is that the " females that are kept in the herd and sold out to other herds" and "the sons that are sold out to commercial herds" are the poor decisions of some producer. The steer that is in the ring or the exhibitor that leads him in the ring should bear no responsibility for YOUR poor decision or calculated risk taken. Sounds like the democratic party  that shuns self accountability and wants me to handle the burden of poor decisions made by others .

Gonewest  - I've been around long enough to have seen alot -  don't really remember the belt buckle baby beef but I can sure remember the monsters. These are both excellent examples (glad you brought them up) of extremes that in fact were detrimental to the cattle business. I have also been around long enough to see good, functional cattle somewhere in the middle be in the champion drive. It is the extremes that will come back and bite you on the a$$ and nowhere in the world does the extreme come to the forefront as much as the show steer gig. Reguardless of the extreme - too tall, too short, too straight, too short coupled, etc etc. they will eventually go out of style or become a problem in their own right that has to be corrected.
I have absolutely no problem with self accountability. I stand behind every animal that I raise, and give a full years breeding guarrentee on every animal that I sell. If you don't sell problem animals into the breeding programs of others then you really don't have anything to worry about, but you and I both know that there are people (I won't say breeders) out there that will sell anything that can be loaded onto a trailer to anyone with a check book. When people quit selling their junk into breeding herds this will no longer be an issue for us to argue about but as long as some one sells a structural wreck to a young kid that doesn't know any better to "base" his cow herd on there is a problem. Maybe you should preach your self accountability sermon to those people. RW
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Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2009, 05:23:32 PM »
I apologize Gonewest, I didn't mean to call you the wrong name.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know I do not feel comfortable using clones. Sorry. Just the way it is for me.

By the way RW, did you call Hawkeye and ask them about the age of clones? Intersting to hear their ideas (and who told them).
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Offline bolt

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2009, 06:38:05 PM »
Does any one feel like clones are just going to become a commen thing then?    If that is the case then how much are we going to lose out on?   I can go threw life with out raising a top steer i don't care personally. I want to build the best herd of sound momma cows that i can.  This may take a life time but i still young.  I'm not as versed as some of u but i just cant see the good in excess or stagnant genetics.   I was told by a man that I respect that a good show bull and a good commercial bull differ by a good clip job.   I just stuck with me.

Offline ROMAX

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2009, 07:38:27 AM »
This may sound stupid but i was wondering,if you clone a heifer that can't reproduce(freemartin) will cloning her get you one that will?
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Offline simtal

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2009, 10:31:32 PM »
I would assume she would be normal since that condition is passed in utero
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Offline justintime

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2009, 10:38:24 PM »
Speaking of cloning this is way off topic, but I heard a scientist interviewed on the radio today. Apparently a baby Mammoth was found two years ago, frozen in perfect condition somewhere in Siberia. It is now going to displayed around the world for the next 5 years by the Russian government. The scientist who was interviewed was invited to do some work with the team that worked with this Mammoth baby when it was found. They are seriously thinking of trying to clone it, to produce a live Mammoth, centuries after they went extinct.  If they actually do this what is next... a dinosaur? Interesting to say the least!
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Offline Telos

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2009, 04:50:26 AM »
Speaking of cloning this is way off topic, but I heard a scientist interviewed on the radio today. Apparently a baby Mammoth was found two years ago, frozen in perfect condition somewhere in Siberia. It is now going to displayed around the world for the next 5 years by the Russian government. The scientist who was interviewed was invited to do some work with the team that worked with this Mammoth baby when it was found. They are seriously thinking of trying to clone it, to produce a live Mammoth, centuries after they went extinct.  If they actually do this what is next... a dinosaur? Interesting to say the least!

From what  I understand they are seriously thinking about cloning the Mammouth. My question is how will they grow the embryo?

It would be great if we could come to some common ground with designing these show steers. Humans do make mistakes in the selection process and sometimes it is just in poor taste and very unpractical. I remembered going to a big state show several years back and watching at least 70% of the steers having trouble moving. IMO, we probably have tried to pack on too much product in too short of an evolutionary time frame, and not considered the skeletal structure it goes on. One thing I have observed is the doubled muscle cattle, like the Belgium Blue, seem to do pretty well when it come to soundness. It is their bone structure that I look at... It appears lighter and flatter with a good deal of flex. A good show steer bone is a whole lot heavier and appears not as flat. Wonder if anyone could comment on this and tell me if I'm  just crazy.
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Offline herefordfootball

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2009, 08:14:32 AM »
Speaking of cloning this is way off topic, but I heard a scientist interviewed on the radio today. Apparently a baby Mammoth was found two years ago, frozen in perfect condition somewhere in Siberia. It is now going to displayed around the world for the next 5 years by the Russian government. The scientist who was interviewed was invited to do some work with the team that worked with this Mammoth baby when it was found. They are seriously thinking of trying to clone it, to produce a live Mammoth, centuries after they went extinct.  If they actually do this what is next... a dinosaur? Interesting to say the least!

Wow. It would be cool to see a mammoth, but I think cloning a frozen one is going to far, that stuff happened a long time ago for a reason, I dont know why, but I'm sure there was reason behind it. That'd be crazy if the cloned a dinasaur, hmmm... anybody ever seen Jurassic Park  (lol)
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