Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: bolt on June 24, 2009, 08:01:49 PM

Title: Clone's
Post by: bolt on June 24, 2009, 08:01:49 PM
OK I'm new to all of this but i just had something on my mind..  I'm not trying to stir anyone up on this just didn't know if any one felt the same.  I am having a hard time with one thing clones.  I know some people use them and have good luck and that is great for them.   I have to sit and think is this ever going to catch up with us.   I don't know.  It has been a topic for quit a few miles in the truck for me and my wife.  We have made our minds up that it is against our morals in life and aren't going to get caught up in it.  I was just curious if anyone felt the same as we do.  I know this is a hot topic all over and i understand what the draw is.  It all comes down to $ and what people want and that's fine i understand completely.  I just don't think it is for us.   I want to thank everyone that is a part of this forum i have learned alot just by reading your posts. 
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Zach on June 24, 2009, 08:18:21 PM
using clones is fine by me. unless you want to pay 500 dollars for heatwave
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Cattledog on June 24, 2009, 09:48:51 PM
Clones in the Angus breed(which I raise) really is not an issue.  You have the a couple clones of some cows but it is really non-existent with the AI bulls out there.  I guess my issue with the use of clones is that you really don't have any genetic improvement.  With that said...genetic improvement is something that needs to be weighed by the person doing the breeding.  Maybe using heatwave clones gives the breeders the kind and type of cattle that they want to produce.   Then you get into the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" methodology.  It's a catch 22...it truly is.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: drl on June 25, 2009, 06:03:29 AM
I will go ahead and use the clones. I believe that the free market will dictate genetic improvement. An example would be Jakes Proud Jazz. He is pretty much a total outcross of shorthorn genetics used for breeding show cattle. He was something new that a few tried and now he is a high selling bull with a couple of sons out on the market now. Those who use line breeding/inbreeding will have things catch up to them as well if not worse than those would use clones.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: simtal on June 25, 2009, 08:11:06 AM
you've been around clones your whole life probably don't know it.  identical twins
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: herefordfootball on June 25, 2009, 09:02:14 AM
If it's agianst your morals, I would stay away from it. There are a lot of bulls out there that would probaly click just as good with your cows as any Heat Wave clone would, you just have to look around.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: knabe on June 25, 2009, 09:59:01 AM
you've been around clones your whole life probably don't know it.  identical twins

we should test human twins to see if they are clones and put down the one's that are.  it's so immoral.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: GONEWEST on June 25, 2009, 02:07:53 PM
I'd be interested to learn your rational that  using a bull that was conceived by cloning is considered a moral issue at all.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: bolt on June 25, 2009, 02:47:51 PM
Well i have tought about what i have said all day driving.   Moral is not the best word i could have used honestly.   My curiousity took a turn for the worse by that word.   Nerves got the best of me.  Not a wize at this at all.  I should have just asked if anyone wouldn't use a bull because of the word clone.   There are several ways or auguments one way or the other.  That is a can of worms that i don't want to open.   I will do better next time on how i say things.  
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Show Heifer on June 25, 2009, 03:09:49 PM
Bolt, I kinda understand where your coming from. I will not use a clone. I'll attempt to explain why.

-My goal is to produce superior animals, both physically (nice looking) and genetically (production, performance, defect free). So, if you are building a herd for the future, I feel that each generation should outproduce itself (with very, very few exceptions). So following that thought, a bull should produce a son or daughter that is better than themselves to further that genetic line. It would be stopping genetic progress to use a clone.
-Rationally, I know, in THEORY the clones should be genetically identical to the genetic donor, but I have my doubts. I fear their longevity, disease resistance, etc. (think Dolly the sheep).
I will be very interested to know how long these clones "hang around" and if they have any health issues (if they are actually brought to the publics attention).
-I just do not think it is right.

Those are my personal reasons.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 25, 2009, 03:34:11 PM
In order to keep on the leading edge of the genetic revolution you have to change/improve your genetics at a constant rate. Most of the clones are of older bulls that have been around long enough in my oppinion to have perpetuated their genes into enough herds that they should be 3 or 4 generations back in the pedigree. I cannot believe that the bulls/clones available today are as good as we will ever get as I have not seen the perfect offspring of any of them. If you are happy with where your herd/genetics are and don't want to improve from where you are, by all means use them. Having been in the cattle business for 30+ years I can remember some bulls that were thought to be absolutely phenominal in their day, however in todays world many of them would be considered average at best. If there is no room for improvement in our genetics today, we had all better hang up our spurs and retire. Personally I think that there is a huge void that is waiting to be filled by the next "great outcross" bull. He will come along - they always have and some one will make a truck load of money off of him. RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: knabe on June 25, 2009, 05:38:32 PM
you'd think if we'd apply moore's law and be improving these animals at a constant rate that we would have 100 lb filets, preground hamburger, no backfat, consistent marbling and animals that could float instead of walk.

this notion that we know what we are doing is ridiculoous.

there never has been a great outcross bull.  soon as you use him, his utility is gone and you just created a problem.

clones are useful for young bulls that didn't get collected enough or other circumstances.

dolly died for know reasons related to the egg donor due to telomere length and other issues.

i haven't seen a clone i'd use yet.  i would though if i did.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 25, 2009, 05:45:36 PM
Knabe - I would at least like to think that I am improving my herd. Make no mistake about it there have been some decissions made over the years that were more of a set back than an improvement. My point simply stated is this - if you stay in the same place you never progress and in this business if you don't move you get left in the dust. RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: knabe on June 25, 2009, 06:17:17 PM
true enough for you probably.  on the other hand, some people would have been better off staying put, ie move to frame 10.  for me, i would sometimes be satisfied just keeping something.  we are always mesmorized by the one-offs.  notice how hard it is to "improve" with heat wave.  how could we improve him that is going to work with a composite?
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: justintime on June 25, 2009, 06:27:55 PM
There is a word that I heard in my youth that I seldom here anymore... and that word is prepotent. A sire was considered a prepotent sire if he sired offspring better than he was himself and especially if he sired a son that out bred him. I hardly ever hear of this anymore. I often wonder about this, especially when I think of the literally thousands of offspring some of these popular sires have produced. I would think that, if these sires were true beef industry improvers, that there would be a son or several sons that would be ready to take the sires place as the next great breeding sire. It doesn't happen very often... not in most purebred breeds, nor in the clubby industry as well. If there were more of these sires around, wouldn't it stand to reason that cloning a sire would be really an insignificant issue, as there would be sons of the sire that could take his place... and do at least as good and hopefully better job of siring excellent offspring.

I can think of a few handfuls of sires in several breeds that were the hottest thing going in their time, however, I am left scratching my head to name a son of these bulls that worked as good as the sire did. Of course there are some sons that have done a good job, but I question if they have been as consistent across the board as the sire. It stands to reason that if a sire is used on some of a breeds best females, there should be sons that are even better breeding pieces. This happens occasionally, but it seems to be less than I would think should be the case.

An old time breeder who I learned a lot from when I was starting out in breeding cattle told me that to be successful in this business, you must always seek for improvement in each generation you produce. I see so many people who are satisfied in producing the same thing over and over, and never striving for improvement. Some of these people scratch their heads and wonder why other people's cattle are getting better than the cattle they produce. The " assume" that these other breeders must be cheating and/ or doing something illegal to be producing the cattle they come out with. I hear this all the time. On a recent trip to the US, I heard so many bad stories about some of the top breeders in the breed I raise, I was left to wonder if there was any truth in any of what was said. I am certain much of what I heard was a feeble attempt to bring these top breeders down a few notches so that they would be closer to their level. A mainline breeder has to have thick skin to put up with this nonsense, as it always seems to happen if you have any success.

Back to the issue at hand.... Cloning. I think cloning has a place in the industry, but I am concerned that it too, will become  a misused tool in the industry. I also struggle from time to time with some of the issues surrounding this technology. Personally I see no reason to ever have more than one clone from any animal, and question if it is even required if these animals that are being cloned were actually as good  at breeding as some people seem to think they are. My view is that if they are as good as that, there should be sons available that will be even better. If there isn't I question if these animals are half as good as we think they are.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 25, 2009, 06:36:00 PM
Far too many people do not treat their genetics as a business. How far would a business go if they don't have a plan and/or direction? Granted some are quite satisfied with where they are and will probably never move ahead. The club calf business is truely a beast of it's own, however with the mongrelization of the club calf producing cow herd, ie retaining the heifer mates to the steers that are produced, the next "great" producing bull may not be a composite. Time will tell of course and nowhere else is extreme change brought any faster than in the club calf industry. I remember when bigger was better and now anything above a 52" steer is considered a monster. The business and the calves produced to sustain it will both continue to change, possibly on a few words spoken over a microphone by some highly respected judge. When real structural soundness or some other trait comes into play in the show steer world ( sooner or later it will) there will be a rapid change in the industry. The ONLY constant is change. RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Zach on June 25, 2009, 07:56:46 PM
there is no such thing as a clone. take it away knabe....
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: knabe on June 25, 2009, 08:10:42 PM
there is no such thing as a clone. take it away knabe....

tee hee.

on another note, why does a show steer need to be sound at all.  they are at the end of their life.  do they walk on the rail?

what if you could have prime marbling, 0.2 backfat, low kph, yield 1 or 2 and it was lame, why should it lose?

perhaps premium cuts will just die out as the premium market shrinks and fat is pointless and show steers will change.

i feel a sea change coming on at some point rather than incrementalism.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: simtal on June 25, 2009, 08:19:03 PM
Far too many people do not treat their genetics as a business.

very well put, I myself is a guilty as anyone.


Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: justintime on June 25, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
A show steer should have to be sound simply because he usually has sisters... who hopefully have to live and produce for several more years, as trouble free, as possible.  If you are selecting genetics that generate unsoundness in the steers and you only goal is to get them to 14 months of age without using an excessive amount of painkillers, you are probably also producing sisters to these steers that are cripples as well.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 25, 2009, 09:07:48 PM
A show steer should have to be sound simply because he usually has sisters... who hopefully have to live and produce for several more years, as trouble free, as possible.  If you are selecting genetics that generate unsoundness in the steers and you only goal is to get them to 14 months of age without using an excessive amount of painkillers, you are probably also producing sisters to these steers that are cripples as well.

Amen! Preach on! RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: rtmcc on June 25, 2009, 10:40:30 PM
A show steer should have to be sound simply because he usually has sisters... who hopefully have to live and produce for several more years, as trouble free, as possible.  If you are selecting genetics that generate unsoundness in the steers and you only goal is to get them to 14 months of age without using an excessive amount of painkillers, you are probably also producing sisters to these steers that are cripples as well.

This was my thought exactly.  A highly respected cattleman was judging our county fair back in the 80's when we all had the big bad steers.  His exact comment was that these steers need to be sound as  all these steers have sisters somewhere in the world that are expected to produce the next generation .

As far as clones go, I'm not sure were I stand.  I think all great sires should produce their replacement for the next generation.  If an animal has an accident at an early age before he can build up a semen bank but has produces enough off spring to prove his worth it may be cause to clone him.  On the other hand, there are millions of cattle in this world.  There is always a better one out there some were waiting to be discovered and make his mark.  It seams that viewpoints on the cloning issue varies a little between pure bred cattle breeders and the club calf sector. Most club calf bulls  are cloned because they are reproductive nightmares to get to produce semen and keep sound for a few years. 

That does not sound like "cattle breeding" to me.  Just using the shot gun approach  ...  just use the next great thing and throw it at enough cows and you are bound to come up with a good one sooner or later.  Most people in the pure bred business need more predictability than this.  And there genetics customers demand more predictability than this.

Remember,  a GREAT ONE is were you find it.  They are not all at the high profile sales.
 <cowboy>

Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Dale on June 25, 2009, 10:44:41 PM
Is the clone's DNA the same age as the donor?  If so, it would be better to clone younger individuals to avoid the diseases of aging such as arthritis, etc.  If a 7 year-old bull is cloned, will the clone, at age 7, be reproductively similar to a 14 year-old due to his ancient DNA?
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Zach on June 25, 2009, 10:47:30 PM
i think if you take the dna at age 7. the clone calf will be 7 years aged when born
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 25, 2009, 10:50:45 PM
Clones are not born the age of the donor, just the same as they are not born weighing 2000lbs. The DNA is the same but the age and other traits influenced by enviroment are different. RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: GONEWEST on June 26, 2009, 01:37:54 AM
JIT,

There is no one on this whole board that I learn more from than you. I really don't feel there are many who have the qualifications or knowledge to give their positions as the right one as do you.  No one states their case as eloquently and unabrasively (not a real word) as you.

That being said. I have some very opposite ideas to the last couple of your posts and I believe my ideas can be substantiated. As far as genetic improvement is concerned you mentioned that term pre-potent. And noted it was a term used a lot years ago but not much today. Also that there should be lots of offspring who are actually better than their sires especially when mated to the best females of their respective  industry but it just doesn't happen that often. Maybe the reason that term isn't used much today is that it was over used and mis-used. In reality, there just aren't many sires that produce bulls who out breed them. They may be able to produce offspring that sure look like they will, but not many  emerge that ever do.

It's because genetics aren't as simple as "like begets like." Striving for improvement is one thing but actually gaining it is an extremely long process. Even according to the examples you give. For me, you got off track there by saying how difficult it is to actually improve a productive animal and then addressing the concerns of smaller, less elite breeders in your breed by implying they were jealous of success and  implying that these "Elite" breeders are making genetic strides by leaps and bounds over others. I am all about the jealousy thing. If you are successful there are those who will do anything possible to be against you in some form or fashion. However, with the specific  people you are referring to, who wield much power in their associations due to the fact that they bring in such a large portion of that associations revenue, maybe they have a legitimate gripe. After all, you just mentioned how difficult it was to make progress and that it just doesn't come around as much as it seems it should.

As far as the clones go, there are many reasons for more than one. First, you have to make several to hope to get one to full term and even past a month old. So if you are lucky enough to do that, there's more than one. Second, like in the case of the Full Flush clones, there are more than one so that they can be used in more than one pasture and breed more cows. That deal was never really about commercial semen production as are the Heat Wave clones. And of course the Heatwave clones are what we are all talking about when we say "clones." The reason there are so many is simply a supply and demand thing. If his progeny didn't do what he was designed to do (win steer shows) better than anything else that is available, there would not be so much demand for the semen. I promise you that those people aren't  cloning them for giggles and grins. They have many reasons, multiple millions of reasons to continue to clone Heat Wave. I think us poor people sometimes have a hard time understanding the size of the economics involved with Heat Wave clones. If the judges quit using Heat Wave progeny to win every show from the National Western to anyone's county fair, there won't be any more Heatwave clones.

One point no one has brought up in this particular instance about genetic improvement is that in the case of Heat Wave, the dynamics of the club calf industry may make it difficult to ever measure improvement on ol' Heat Wave. The big time steer thing is run and controlled so much by a handful of traders and jocks. If they have a big time calf and you go to try to buy it, guess who the sire is gonna be? I guarantee you it'll be a Heat Wave every time. WHY? Because Heat Waves win, because if you are going for a national level steer you are going at it to win not as a kids 4-H project. And you know as well as anyone Heat Waves win so that's what you want to hear him say the sire is. If you're a family that just wants to go to his place and get a steer that won't embarrass you at the county level what is it going to be when you ask? A HEAT WAVE, because you know Heat Waves win national shows, surely one would be competitive at your county fair. We will never know who the real sire of many of these cattle are because they are sold as Heat Waves. There may already be two or three really good sons we don't even know about and never will.

But my absolute pet peeve and what I disagree very strongly on was your comment to what Knabe said about steers not needing to be perfectly sound. I want to puke(admittedly a most eloquent term) every time I hear a judge say "I want him to be as sound as possible because he has heifer mates out in the pasture."  To me that is an extremely weak argument that holds no water on any front.  I am totally with Knabe in that  there should be far more important considerations on a show steer than if he is a little short strided or how pretty he walks in a show ring. If he were in a commercial situation, he would get no more dollars for being able to make it to the feed bunk in an attractive fashion. If he had to be lifted and carried to the feed bunk or was lame and didn't feel like going to the feed bunk is one thing. But as long as he makes it why does he have to look good doing it? Oh yeah, he has sisters.

Well the first reason that makes no sense is because we are judging one animal, the one that is in the ring and he is not a breeding animal. What MIGHT be out in the pasture somewhere should have zero relevance to a steer show. We judge one animal on his own merits on one day. The judge has no business extrapolating a family tree from a terminal animal.

Which brings me to my second and most important point as to why that argument is such a farce. These are animals that are bred to be TERMINAL, bred to be killed before they reproduce. Not bred with the idea in mind to be trouble free for years in the pasture. I don't care if it's the show ring or a commercial situation, if you use these sires that consistently make competitive show steers to sire your calves, they are being chosen for a terminal situation. Not a reproductive situation. They are not designed, intended or have any more business in a reproductive situation than a car does under water. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense that it matters what it's heifer mates look like because they are bred to be killed as well. You may CHOOSE to keep some for replacements but you do so with the knowledge that those animals were not intended for that purpose and there may be consequences to your decision.

If Simmental X Angus cross steers were competitive in the show ring, then there would be a point to consider soundness since that is a viable cross for commercial production. But they aren't and the sires we use to produce show steers are made for that purpose and that purpose only. If you keep replacements from these terminal sires, you get the stuff that may come with them. Everything else equal,  the pretty walking steer should win. But they are bred to grade and yield and look good doing it. Nothing else should be inferred by a judge.

Now if you want to argue that we should be selecting Simmental X Angus steers as the winners and not the Chi-Maine-Shorty combination's that dominate today, then that is a whole different argument that has merit. But by today's standards, the fact that a steer may have some sisters that some one is taking a chance on making into momma cows should have absolutely no relevance to the placing of a steer in today's  show ring.

Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Show Heifer on June 26, 2009, 07:00:23 AM
Actually RW, some experts will disagree with you. Call up Hawkeye and ask what their opinion is on clones and their age, and then ask them who told them that..... 
You are cloning the cells. If that cell is 10, then that is material that will be cloned.

Quote from farwest:Which brings me to my second and most important point as to why that argument is such a farce. These are animals that are bred to be TERMINAL, bred to be killed before they reproduce. Not bred with the idea in mind to be trouble free for years in the pasture. I don't care if it's the show ring or a commercial situation, if you use these sires that consistently make competitive show steers to sire your calves, they are being chosen for a terminal situation. Not a reproductive situation. They are not designed, intended or have any more business in a reproductive situation than a car does under water. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense that it matters what it's heifer mates look like because they are bred to be killed as well. You may CHOOSE to keep some for replacements but you do so with the knowledge that those animals were not intended for that purpose and there may be consequences to your decision.

If that statement were true, why are their "steer bulls" and bulls? If in fact, that statement heatwave would have been burger at 16 months of age. Along with most other "clubbie bulls". All were bred to be steers, and then when knife time came, they were "just too good" to cut, therefore they are a bull that should, by your own accounts, be a steer because that is what it was bred for.
A show should be an exhibition of the best. If the "best" steer is one that has trouble walking or has toes pointing four different directions, then that is pathetic.

Clone from farwest:  First, you have to make several to hope to get one to full term and even past a month old.  

WHihc agrees with my arguement that their isn't something quite right with this process. Too many die too early for "unknown reasons."



ALl that being said, do what you think is best for your herd. That is the name of the game, your cow herd, your money, your choice. As long as all the cloned offspring of the calves are being marketed for what they are CLONED progeny and not the original, then by all means, knock yourself out and go for it.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: doublestuff on June 26, 2009, 07:14:59 AM
GoneWest you are right on as far as im concerned. Couldnt agree more when it comes to the soundness issue.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: doublestuff on June 26, 2009, 07:17:50 AM
Only time will tell but I think Monopoly could just be the one son to overthrow the king and actually be better than his sire.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: GONEWEST on June 26, 2009, 07:54:48 AM
Show heifer,

Quote from farwest  It's GONE west, but that's ok.

If that statement were true, why are their "steer bulls" and bulls? If in fact, that statement heatwave would have been burger at 16 months of age. Along with most other "clubbie bulls". All were bred to be steers, and then when knife time came, they were "just too good" to cut, therefore they are a bull that should, by your own accounts, be a steer because that is what it was bred for.


Uhhh..........WHAT??? Are you going to argue with me that these cattle aren't bred to be terminal?
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 26, 2009, 08:10:10 AM
Back in the good old days (when you didn't have calves that were born crippled) we  had shows that the entire animal was judged. If the politics weren't too overwhelming the animals that were the most complete ie - most muscle, correct finish, structurally correct, etc etc won shows. Today it's a who's the widest, 52 inch steer that has been through the right hands contest. In an Ideal world all of the calves produced from terminal sire would be hanging on the rail at 16 months but that doesn't happen, which is the exact reason why steers need to be able to walk. The real truth is that there are females kept in herd and sold to other herds out of the terminal sires, not to mention the sons that are sold as bulls to commercial herds. The whole theory of "as long as he has an ass as wide as an old maid school teacher and can make it in from tie outs" is BS in my oppinion. When these genetics are contained strictly to the show steer game as steers or market heifers is when the structural soundness issues will no longer be an issue.RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Carm on June 26, 2009, 08:21:50 AM
If the argument is that unsound steers could still make the best end product, why show live steers at all? Why not just have carcass competitions.

All steers, even if bred to be terminal, have a dam and sire that were breeding animals.  If you have a steer that is unsound he must have gotten it from one of his parents.   If both parents are sound, as breeding animals should be, they should not be able to create too unsound of a calf.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: simtal on June 26, 2009, 08:27:26 AM
I agree the comparison involving steers and their heifer mates (and longevity, etc...) is weak.  This clubby heifer by-product (much like barrows that come from maternal lines in pigs) aren't made to be cows.   Isn't the ideal club calf momma today bred to be really maternal anyway (think 734 or ohlde)? You don't go buy these "shoulda been a steer" deals for cows, just like you don't buy a dump truck to commute to work.  Don't blame the exhibitors of these cattle for something that's beyond their control.  
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: GONEWEST on June 26, 2009, 12:39:24 PM
Well Road Warrior the good ol' days are never quite as good as they are remembered, are they?  Are you referring to the good ol' days of the Angus association running their famous "Elephant" ads when their bulls were bigger than anyone's ? The days where the cattle were ten framed and appeared to be on stilts and had no body or muscle? Those good ol' days? Or are you referring to the good REALLY ol' days of belt buckle size cattle that spawned dwarfism?

 I clearly stated that I didn't mean cattle that were too uncomfortable to walk, so if you think the theory you quoted is "BS",  in your opinion, why would you give such a BS reason as the premise of your belief? The real truth is that the " females that are kept in the herd and sold out to other herds" and "the sons that are sold out to commercial herds"  are the poor decisions of some producer. The steer that is in the ring or the exhibitor that leads him in the ring should bear no responsibility for YOUR poor decision or calculated risk taken. Sounds like the democratic party  that shuns self accountability and wants me to handle the burden of poor decisions made by others .
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: DLD on June 26, 2009, 01:59:09 PM
I won't try to deny that the steer show ring is a long ways away from the "industry" these days, but it's pretty far out in left field to believe that what happens there has no effect whatsoever on the rest of the industry.  Pretty much every breed has it's own issues with too straight, tight wound, short striding cattlle - granted we're coming away from it faster in the "breeding stock" than in the "clubbies", but no matter where it's coming from, it manages to trickle down.  You're only kidding yourself if you believe there aren't Heat Wave daughters in production, all the way from well known and respected breeders who know exactly what they have and what they're doing with them, to good ol' farmer John out west of town who picks up a few replacement heifers at the same sale barn that your neighbor sells his leftover clubbies at. 

Regardless of how close or far away you think the show ring is from the "industry", they're still supposed to be lined up according to quality, and soundness is a really big part of that.  There's no shortage of steers that will grade and yield plenty well, and that are attractive and still sound to necessitate using a "cripple", at least not at the shows I frequent (mostly in OK and TX) anyway.  There are too many good complete ones out there for there to be any reason to accept anything less.

As far as the original subject goes,  I don't have anything against cloning or using clones in general, but I do agree that doing so is not promoting progress - from the genetics of the cowherd to the showring, it just leaves the repeat button stuck on.  The one new clone that interests me is Houston - at least he's something new. 

Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Dusty on June 26, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the prescence of clones in the cattle industry, particularly show cattle.  There are a lot more clones than people know about that are brewing right now.  Not only clones of bulls, but clones of cows, clones of steers to be bulls and clones of steers to be shown as steers.  It is going to be interesting to see where this all goes 5 yrs from now.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: herefordfootball on June 26, 2009, 02:54:56 PM
National Western Stock Show: THE CLONE WARS

Enter Star Wars Music
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROAD WARRIOR on June 26, 2009, 04:41:43 PM
Well Road Warrior the good ol' days are never quite as good as they are remembered, are they?  Are you referring to the good ol' days of the Angus association running their famous "Elephant" ads when their bulls were bigger than anyone's ? The days where the cattle were ten framed and appeared to be on stilts and had no body or muscle? Those good ol' days? Or are you referring to the good REALLY ol' days of belt buckle size cattle that spawned dwarfism?

 I clearly stated that I didn't mean cattle that were too uncomfortable to walk, so if you think the theory you quoted is "BS",  in your opinion, why would you give such a BS reason as the premise of your belief? The real truth is that the " females that are kept in the herd and sold out to other herds" and "the sons that are sold out to commercial herds"  are the poor decisions of some producer. The steer that is in the ring or the exhibitor that leads him in the ring should bear no responsibility for YOUR poor decision or calculated risk taken. Sounds like the democratic party  that shuns self accountability and wants me to handle the burden of poor decisions made by others .

Gonewest  - I've been around long enough to have seen alot -  don't really remember the belt buckle baby beef but I can sure remember the monsters. These are both excellent examples (glad you brought them up) of extremes that in fact were detrimental to the cattle business. I have also been around long enough to see good, functional cattle somewhere in the middle be in the champion drive. It is the extremes that will come back and bite you on the a$$ and nowhere in the world does the extreme come to the forefront as much as the show steer gig. Reguardless of the extreme - too tall, too short, too straight, too short coupled, etc etc. they will eventually go out of style or become a problem in their own right that has to be corrected.
I have absolutely no problem with self accountability. I stand behind every animal that I raise, and give a full years breeding guarrentee on every animal that I sell. If you don't sell problem animals into the breeding programs of others then you really don't have anything to worry about, but you and I both know that there are people (I won't say breeders) out there that will sell anything that can be loaded onto a trailer to anyone with a check book. When people quit selling their junk into breeding herds this will no longer be an issue for us to argue about but as long as some one sells a structural wreck to a young kid that doesn't know any better to "base" his cow herd on there is a problem. Maybe you should preach your self accountability sermon to those people. RW
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Show Heifer on June 26, 2009, 05:23:32 PM
I apologize Gonewest, I didn't mean to call you the wrong name.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know I do not feel comfortable using clones. Sorry. Just the way it is for me.

By the way RW, did you call Hawkeye and ask them about the age of clones? Intersting to hear their ideas (and who told them).
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: bolt on June 26, 2009, 06:38:05 PM
Does any one feel like clones are just going to become a commen thing then?    If that is the case then how much are we going to lose out on?   I can go threw life with out raising a top steer i don't care personally. I want to build the best herd of sound momma cows that i can.  This may take a life time but i still young.  I'm not as versed as some of u but i just cant see the good in excess or stagnant genetics.   I was told by a man that I respect that a good show bull and a good commercial bull differ by a good clip job.   I just stuck with me.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: ROMAX on June 27, 2009, 07:38:27 AM
This may sound stupid but i was wondering,if you clone a heifer that can't reproduce(freemartin) will cloning her get you one that will?
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: simtal on June 27, 2009, 10:31:32 PM
I would assume she would be normal since that condition is passed in utero
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: justintime on June 27, 2009, 10:38:24 PM
Speaking of cloning this is way off topic, but I heard a scientist interviewed on the radio today. Apparently a baby Mammoth was found two years ago, frozen in perfect condition somewhere in Siberia. It is now going to displayed around the world for the next 5 years by the Russian government. The scientist who was interviewed was invited to do some work with the team that worked with this Mammoth baby when it was found. They are seriously thinking of trying to clone it, to produce a live Mammoth, centuries after they went extinct.  If they actually do this what is next... a dinosaur? Interesting to say the least!
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Telos on June 28, 2009, 04:50:26 AM
Speaking of cloning this is way off topic, but I heard a scientist interviewed on the radio today. Apparently a baby Mammoth was found two years ago, frozen in perfect condition somewhere in Siberia. It is now going to displayed around the world for the next 5 years by the Russian government. The scientist who was interviewed was invited to do some work with the team that worked with this Mammoth baby when it was found. They are seriously thinking of trying to clone it, to produce a live Mammoth, centuries after they went extinct.  If they actually do this what is next... a dinosaur? Interesting to say the least!

From what  I understand they are seriously thinking about cloning the Mammouth. My question is how will they grow the embryo?

It would be great if we could come to some common ground with designing these show steers. Humans do make mistakes in the selection process and sometimes it is just in poor taste and very unpractical. I remembered going to a big state show several years back and watching at least 70% of the steers having trouble moving. IMO, we probably have tried to pack on too much product in too short of an evolutionary time frame, and not considered the skeletal structure it goes on. One thing I have observed is the doubled muscle cattle, like the Belgium Blue, seem to do pretty well when it come to soundness. It is their bone structure that I look at... It appears lighter and flatter with a good deal of flex. A good show steer bone is a whole lot heavier and appears not as flat. Wonder if anyone could comment on this and tell me if I'm  just crazy.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: herefordfootball on June 28, 2009, 08:14:32 AM
Speaking of cloning this is way off topic, but I heard a scientist interviewed on the radio today. Apparently a baby Mammoth was found two years ago, frozen in perfect condition somewhere in Siberia. It is now going to displayed around the world for the next 5 years by the Russian government. The scientist who was interviewed was invited to do some work with the team that worked with this Mammoth baby when it was found. They are seriously thinking of trying to clone it, to produce a live Mammoth, centuries after they went extinct.  If they actually do this what is next... a dinosaur? Interesting to say the least!

Wow. It would be cool to see a mammoth, but I think cloning a frozen one is going to far, that stuff happened a long time ago for a reason, I dont know why, but I'm sure there was reason behind it. That'd be crazy if the cloned a dinasaur, hmmm... anybody ever seen Jurassic Park  (lol)
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: justintime on June 28, 2009, 08:47:33 AM
It was mentioned in the interview I heard, that they would use an elephant as the surrogate mother to raise the embryo. They seem to think the DNA between the two animals are fairly close.

Telos, I think your wish for some common ground in designing show steers, takes a little more imagination that cloning a mammoth does. It would be something like asking 10 economists a question... you usually end up with 10 different answers and possibly 11 if one of them went to Harvard.

In regards to you comments about double muscled animals, I think you are correct in what you are saying. The Belgian Blue show ( or British Blues, as they are called in Britain)  was one of the largest beef shows at the Royal Highland show , in Edinburgh last year when I was there. I also saw many Blue cattle in the farms I visited. Many of the cattle I saw, did not have legs that would be considered acceptable here in N America. They were finer boned, and flatter as you mentioned, but they also were what we commonly refer to as sickle hocked. They did have lots of flex in their joints and I think these traits have developed over time. With the muscle mass these animals have I think the animals with leg structure that could not handle the weight, probably were eliminated from the population by natural selection. When viewing a commercial herd that was using Belgian Blue bulls, I asked if they had many problems with feet and legs from using these bulls. The owner said that they had almost no problems with legs and feet, from either the Blue bulls or their offspring.

Personally, if I had to chose between a straight legged bull or a sickle hocked bull, I would take the sickle hocked bull every time. Legs with too much curvature do not look very attractive, but I have never heard of a bull with this trait having to be shipped because he was crippled. That certainly cannot be said about straight legged cattle... almost 100% of them go to town( or die on the farm)  because they are crippled. Many of them get crippled at extremely young ages as well.
Title: Re: Clone's
Post by: Carm on June 28, 2009, 09:58:50 AM
Are cloned animals allowed for human consumption now?  When the first dairy cows were cloned they were not allowed to sell their milk.  I don't think they are in Canada.  My wife works at Semex Canada and they can not sell semen from cloned bulls in Canada yet.