Could the black hided deal backfire on people?

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aj

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I know this has nothing to do with 15,000 $ cows or 20,000 % bulls. Could the black hided deal end up being a bad thing for people buying  cattle? Could the Angus genetic defects.....especially the dd deal become associated with the black hide? Could it be that someone wanting to buy 40 cows........decide to buy say red cows to skip the cost of a dd tests. Most commercial guys in our area have never heard of ds or th or pha.......but they have read all the press about genetic defects in the Black Angus. How deep is dd going to go? Did it go into the maintainers and sim angus and limi flexes? Would it be ironic if the black hided cattle got a rap for being loaded with defects? Of course a black hided calf might still get a bonus going into the feedlot. Okay......back to Lucy Janes 20,000 $ show heifer she bought with her own money.
 

Ms.Showjock

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I dont think the black hide will get a bad name just because of a few genetic defects.  In our herd, any cattle coming from an Angus genetic line get a GeneTrac blood test turned in.  It tests for any genetic disorder that might be in the animals pedigree from a previous affected ancestor.  Any producer who is knowledgable about the subject of genetic defects should know enough to check for such defects.  Plus most genetic problems can be avoided by proper breeding of animals in ways that no defects should appear.    :)
 

Ms.Showjock

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Well, I come from the Simmental breed and with our registration comes a GeneTrac dot at the top of the registration papers online.  The various colors in the dot represent different things; pink is when the animal itself has not been tested but either parent is a known carrier,  yellow is when there is the possibility of carrier in the line but parent lineage may not be known, red is a carrier, green is clean, and a light green means the animal has not been tested but there are no known carriers in its lineage.  I am not as knowledgeable in other breeds but most that I know of have something similar. If you breed to clean, cattle, these problems can be avoided  :)
 

cbcr

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I think that the black hided programs are still too popular for it to have very much of an effect at this time.  The only concern I have is when a registered breeder has an animal that is a carrier (no matter what breed) and he puts her into a commercial herd.  What if he sells her or she has a heifer that gets sold that is still a carrier.  OK so if the next owner is using animals that are free of the genetic defect there should be no problems, but what if?
 

knabe

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Ms.Showjock said:
If you breed to clean, cattle, these problems can be avoided  :)

and what about defects you don't know about yet?  carrier cattle have some utility.  once we get over that people that selected them are not criminals, and that they may have merit (both the people and the cattle), the tests allow people to use them until free one's are obtained.  it's stupid and short sighted to cull them now before we know what cattle have.  it may take a few generations to do so.
 

knabe

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cbcr said:
What if he sells her or she has a heifer that gets sold that is still a carrier.  OK so if the next owner is using animals that are free of the genetic defect there should be no problems, but what if?

what's the confirmed percent death loss in commercial herds to all lethal defects combined.  these defects are a small problem in commercial herds.  always have been, always will be.
 

redsimmsnangus

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Ms.Showjock said:
Well, I come from the Simmental breed and with our registration comes a GeneTrac dot at the top of the registration papers online.  The various colors in the dot represent different things; pink is when the animal itself has not been tested but either parent is a known carrier,  yellow is when there is the possibility of carrier in the line but parent lineage may not be known, red is a carrier, green is clean, and a light green means the animal has not been tested but there are no known carriers in its lineage.  I am not as knowledgeable in other breeds but most that I know of have something similar. If you breed to clean, cattle, these problems can be avoided  :)

Thought I used clean bulls, too, until DD came along, then whoops! I have 3 cows potentially bred to a carrier SimAngus bull.  This is not the first time it has happened to me, I have a talent for selecting bulls that will end up carrying a defect later on (OS, MA, now DD).

And don't lean on the TraitTrac too hard.  The bull I used and his sire are still "green" even though they are confirmed DD carriers, since they don't TraitTrac until there is a commercially available test to use on the progeny (read the ASA's fine print).
 

BTDT

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Genetic defects will not be the down fall of any breed. Unethical BREEDERS will be the down fall. Dishonesty will be the downfall of breeds of cattle.

If the commercial cattleman in your area are not aware of TH, PHA, or DS, then it is because you (and others) have not educated them about them. No one to blame but yourself.  If I am correct, you have shorthorn, so why are you not educating the cattlemen in your area?

knabe - How do you expect commercial cattleman to be aware of defects when most purebred, registered breeders are not fully aware of them?  Many commercial cattleman do not investigate EVERY dead calf or aborted fetus due to cost and "too busy". That is very different from purebred/registered breeders not investigating dead, deformed calves and aborted fetuses due to the fear of finding a defect. 
If you really want to find out how many defective calves are in commercial herds, then offer a "finders fee" for commercial cattleman to be rewarded for investigating deformed calves/aborted fetuses. 
From lurking on here in the past, many cattleman out west claim they do not watch their cattle calve, due to location, space, whatever, and so many of them may not even SEE a deformed, dead calf.
I would hardly judge the defective cattle population in the commercial herd by unreported numbers or lack thereof.

Black hided cattle have declined in percent of total cattle over the last several years. The reasons are everything from better programs from other breed organizations, better colored cattle, worse black cattle, and more education on quality from other colored breeds.  It also has to do with many "back yard farmers" are getting into cattle and those buyers like colored cattle; maybe they are "prettier" maybe they have better dispositions, whatever.

 

aj

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From a commercial guys stand point.......if you go to a special cow sale........and are looking to buy 300 cows to fill out the north 40.......sections......maybe you don't want to spend 50 bucks on tests........and haul each cow out seperately......to a special bull that lines up right on lethal genetic defects. Maybe you buy red cows cause you think you are dd free anyway. Maybe you you use a red limi,simmi,Shorthorn. or Red Angus cause you think......at least the dd won't be a problem. I'm just saying.
 

aj

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What is the makeup of cows in the USA today.......as far as breeds go. 70% Black Angus maybe. 15% Herford. 10% Simmi........5 % Shorthorn and Red Angus.......? If 70% of cows in the US are Angus based.......and the perception is that black equals....dd or curly calf or what ever.......maybe it is outcross time........? A Red outcross?
 

Mill Iron A

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I'm not sure this will have quite the effect you are thinking it will AJ. I do think black hided cattle will not be so dominant in the near future but for different reasons.  If steak in the grocery store is $15/lb do you think someone wants to pay $20 for that premium CAB? Sure some still will because it won't make as big of a dent in their budget but for the vast majority of Americans today it will make a huge dent in the grocery budget.  I'm also hearing where restaurants are having just as good if not better luck with programs other than CAB. I just don't think they will be able to pass on the  "black hided" premium like they used to.  And AJ I know of nobody that has a pet for $20K and if that is the case they are such a small part of the industry that it is not even worth bringing up.
 

BTDT

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I think your percentages are wrong AJ. So I took my own advice and used google. I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.
2. CAB has the requirement that 50% of the FACE color must be black.
3. 70% of the bulls turned out were black, with the ASSUMPTION of those being angus. (Survey choices make no differentiation between black simmi's, black limmi's etc)
4. Number of black bulls being turned out were down by percentage from 2005 till 2010.
5. 75% of cattle in US are black HIDED. Again, no differentiation from angus vs. other black cattle.
6. Black NATIVE cattle are increases faster than black angus in the US.

Those are just a few things I found on a quick search.  And we wonder why the city folks are so confused.

 

redsimmsnangus

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BTDT said:
I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.

Seriously?  :eek:

One look at the webpage that spit that crap out will confirm it's lack of credibility. I hope you were joking.
 

cowsrcuddly

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Sorry BTDT, your sources are wrong!!
Quote: (I think your percentages are wrong AJ. So I took my own advice and used google. I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.
2. CAB has the requirement that 50% of the FACE color must be black.)

CAB has the requirement that the ANIMAL must be at least 51% black.  Not the face!
In order to be labeled as Certified Angus Beef, the animal must meet either  genotype (genetics, or family tree) or phenotype (physical appearance) requirements. To meet the genotype requirements, the animal must be able to be traced to one parent that is pure-bred Angus, or two grandparents that are pure-bred Angus.

If the genotype requirements are not met, the phenotype requirements can be met instead. Those requirements are actually pretty simple – the animal needs to be at least 51% black. That’s it. Beef cattle can come in black, white, red, gray, or a couple of other colors.

After the initial eligibility screening, there is still more inspection and grading to come. Certified Angus Beef is scored in ten quality areas. First, they look for marbling and maturity. Certified Angus Beef must have:
■Modest or higher marbling (small fat deposits in the meat)
■Medium or fine marbling texture (lots of small fat deposits, instead of a few large fat deposits)
■“A” maturity – these are cattle that are harvested between 9-30 months old. Beef from younger cattle tends to be much more tender.

Next, they look for things that will bring a consistent size to each cut of beef:
■10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area
■Less than 1,000-pound carcass weight
■Less than 1-inch fat thickness on the outside of the steak

Finally, they look for things that ensure the quality and tenderness of this brand:
■Superior muscling (restricts dairy cattle genetic influence)
■Practically free of capillary ruptures (ensures visually appealing steak)
■No dark cutters (“dark cutters” are steaks that have a dark red color, instead of the normal cherry red color. This often results from stress during transport or handling, and some animals are more likely to have this than others. The lack of dark cutters ensures visually appealing steak)
■No neck hump on the animal (some breeds have a large neck hump, and these breeds tend to have less tender beef than Angus)

Less than 8% of beef in the United States makes the cut to be called Certified Angus Beef. And less than 1.5% of beef in the United States meets the quality specifications to be called Prime Certified Angus Beef.
 

vc

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Cowsrcuddly, your info may be correct but I do believe that BTDT was well aware that his information was incorrect, I kind of think that was his point. The information highway sometimes is full of misinformation.
 

Okotoks

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cowsrcuddly said:
Sorry BTDT, your sources are wrong!!
Quote: (I think your percentages are wrong AJ. So I took my own advice and used google. I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.
2. CAB has the requirement that 50% of the FACE color must be black.)

CAB has the requirement that the ANIMAL must be at least 51% black.  Not the face!
In order to be labeled as Certified Angus Beef, the animal must meet either  genotype (genetics, or family tree) or phenotype (physical appearance) requirements. To meet the genotype requirements, the animal must be able to be traced to one parent that is pure-bred Angus, or two grandparents that are pure-bred Angus.

If the genotype requirements are not met, the phenotype requirements can be met instead. Those requirements are actually pretty simple – the animal needs to be at least 51% black. That’s it. Beef cattle can come in black, white, red, gray, or a couple of other colors.

After the initial eligibility screening, there is still more inspection and grading to come. Certified Angus Beef is scored in ten quality areas. First, they look for marbling and maturity. Certified Angus Beef must have:
■Modest or higher marbling (small fat deposits in the meat)
■Medium or fine marbling texture (lots of small fat deposits, instead of a few large fat deposits)
■“A” maturity – these are cattle that are harvested between 9-30 months old. Beef from younger cattle tends to be much more tender.

Next, they look for things that will bring a consistent size to each cut of beef:
■10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area
■Less than 1,000-pound carcass weight
■Less than 1-inch fat thickness on the outside of the steak

Finally, they look for things that ensure the quality and tenderness of this brand:
■Superior muscling (restricts dairy cattle genetic influence)
■Practically free of capillary ruptures (ensures visually appealing steak)
■No dark cutters (“dark cutters” are steaks that have a dark red color, instead of the normal cherry red color. This often results from stress during transport or handling, and some animals are more likely to have this than others. The lack of dark cutters ensures visually appealing steak)
■No neck hump on the animal (some breeds have a large neck hump, and these breeds tend to have less tender beef than Angus)

Less than 8% of beef in the United States makes the cut to be called Certified Angus Beef. And less than 1.5% of beef in the United States meets the quality specifications to be called Prime Certified Angus Beef.
I would have thought that at least 60 % of the cattle in the US could claim to be sired by an Angus or have two Angus grand parents so if only 8% make CAB and 1.5% Prime Certified Angus Beef why are so many people using Angus, where is the premium?
 

BTDT

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vc said:
Cowsrcuddly, your info may be correct but I do believe that BTDT was well aware that his information was incorrect, I kind of think that was his point. The information highway sometimes is full of misinformation.

VC, you are correct, the information is very INCORRECT, but just goes to show you why the city folks are so confused.

Cowsrcuddly, your information is correct in theory. Keep in mind, you are asking a slaughter house worker to make judgement decisions on what is "51%". Even the people at the aaa office will tell you that only 51% of THAT DAYS KILL has to be black hided, which is quite  a difference. Keep in mind, BLACK HIDED is very very different than ANGUS. It could be a 100% purebred Simmental and make CAB. 
The office will also tell you they "adjusted" the requirements about a year ago so that more could qualify.

If your numbers are correct, and 60% are black hided and therefore "angus" in CAB mentality, and if only 9.5% of those make a premium market, then I guess I would have to say the angus breed is FAILING big time.  Especially given the fact they have relaxed the requirements once already.  Honestly, the CAB program isn't all that "premium" requirements...

 
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