County Show = Popularity Contest

green8911 said:

Little Johnny's (we'll leave names off), owns half the town here in SW Tx and was the high bidder on both the grand, reserve, and 3 of the lower placing cows, who, by the way belonged to people who works for him. 

My reasoning for the post was simply to start a discussion on how other county shows worked and if this was the exception or the standard.  That's it.  All of a sudden people started taking offense to the fact that I said I won't allow my child to participate in this county show mess any further.  I never ever said I wanted to pull him from the program.  There are plenty of jackpots that go on the same weekend as county we can attend.  My frustration is the fact that the board members publicize that they want to get participation up and ask for help in figuring out how to do so.  When all along, this type of politics and financial resources are the top reasons families do not get involved.  When you throw in a sale like what happened, you just slapped them in the face on the financial side as well.  And yes, it is understood the kid has to get out there and solicit, but when the businesses they're soliciting are owned and operated predominantly by a group of people who also run the board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, do you really honestly think those no-name kids will get a fair shake....?  Obviously, based on what happened at our show, that's not the case.

Click to expand...

Consider it a bonus to his employees....... 

I get it.  And Sandy, thank you.  Aside from the snide comments from a lot of people, the good comments like Sandy's have been very helpful and will definitely help my son going into next year.  So from the bottom of my heart and from a single mom, THANK YOU. 

For those that think getting on a forum and beating someone up that's just looking for opinions, well, you and your comments mean about the same as the cow manure I scraped off my shoes this evening.

When Obama can't run for public office he is gonna chair a show committee then he is gonna set all social & economic injustices straight - so hang in there Green...better days are ahead  <rock>

Until then hang with your friends on the BIG SHOW <beer>

It would appear that the only opinions that interest you are those that match yours.  Those that don't are "snide".  You have been offered good, sound advice and it seems you have no interest in learning because you already know how it all works.  You have not been beaten up on this site.  The reason this thread is so long, is people are trying to enlighten you and you refuse to consider any alternatives.

The comment about trying to get as many kids  as you can, to leave your county show reveals your real attitude, you're more interested in hurting the show than trying to fix anything. 

Hopefully, after some time passes, you can look at this objectively and figure out a way to make this a positive experience.

VC & BDTD made good points too! Our kids are learning valuable life lessons that life is not always fair but that you keep on keeping on and the victory is in knowing you did your best.

Green, some of these ol' coots on here like to kick ya when your down. Ignore them. They don't realize what happens when "momma bear" comes out and we want to fix things and make it right. I totally get what your saying and wish that our kids were treated fair and rewarded for their effort all the time, but its not reality. Thats why its our job to be our kids greatest cheerleaders.

Bigby, that's not true.  I value all opinions for or against mine.  I'm taking it all in.  But when someone get's on a forum and the only thing they have to say is to call you a "moron", or "idiot", or belittle you, well, that in my opinion puts them right there with the lowest cowards of any history lesson there is and just below the worms under the cow patties in my field. 

Thank you Sandy, I agree.  ANY decent, good hearted parent would stand up for their child which is exactly what I was doing.  You win some, you lose some, and you get a lot of education, but in the end you stand up for your kids.

Dear Green,
As I read through the many comments on this thread I can see where you might be feeling like an unappreciated step child.  Please don't think we are all bad!  As a mom I also want what is best for my child.  As many have stated the solution to your County Show frustration is to become involved in your community.  I can't over emphasize this point!  It doesn't take as much effort as you may think.  Start with the other steer parents in the 4H club/FFA chapter.  Talk to the owner of the feed store where you trade.  Get other folks who are also feeling disenchanted and start a buyers group!  The more bidders you can get to an auction the more money the projects will bring.  Finally, based on our 8 years of experience, if you think the Texas jackpot/Major show circuit is going to bring you more satisfaction then I am going to have to join Chambero/Schroeder et.al., you are going to be even MORE disappointed!  Wait till you get to the biggest jackpots (Belt Buckle Bonanza & Fall Classic) and/or the majors and that Reserve Champ American you showed at county doesn't classify as an American!  OR, like Schroeder, your awesome 3/4 brahman steer doesn't class as a brahman at Houston.  OR the weight break game gets you and your calf gets buried in a class with the power players!  Girl, if you think politics got you at your county show then just wait!  Bright side of all this, showing livestock is a wonderful life journey that, if you let it, will bring your child and yourself many opportunities to make life long friends and learn valuable life lessons.  Best way to have more fun and experience less frustration....show heifers!  Caveat.....choose a breed that you can be competitive (translation....ask a lot of folks before you jump into a specific breed). Good luck to you!    <beer> 

These count fair auctions are easy to figure out.  There are generally 4 types of buyers, family members of the exhibitors, the ego maniac that wants to show off how much money they off, the business that wants to promote their business.  Then finally the you scratch my back I'll  scratch yours type buyers.  These in my opinion are the most common ones.  They come in and support the kids whose family does business with them as a payback for their patronage and loyalty and to hopefully keep them from taking their business elsewhere.  You will get the people that come in and do add on's to every project in the sale as well as people that will come purchase breeding animals for their herd at the fairs that sell commercial heifers in pens or on halter as well as breeding stock in other species.  Even politicians will come in and buy or make donations as way to hopefully drum up more votes.  In conclusion if you want to receive more money for your project at the fair you need to send polite buyer letters to people who fit these types of buyers and let them know you (your child) has a project at the fair and invite them to the show and sale, include tickets to the buyers luncheon or dinner if there is one.  Send thank you letter to your buyer(s) every one who adds on to the project and even those who bid on your project (most fairs will announce who each bidder is after each bid)  those people/ businesses will remember that come next year at the sale.  The only animals that sell theirselves at the county fair are the champions, unless the buyers/sales committee is really busting their butts and getting a lot of money rounded up, you need to bring your own.

For those that think getting on a forum and beating someone up that's just looking for opinions, well, you and your comments mean about the same as the cow manure I scraped off my shoes this evening.

Click to expand...

Sorry but anyone who takes out a loan for a show animal is a moron.

Don't come on a public forum if you cannot handle the criticism.  Seems to me you are more upset you didn't get your loan money back than anything else.

Your complaining illustrates what is wrong with society today and our youth.  Everyone feels they are "owed" something. 

Next year, don't take out a loan, buy a cheap exotic, and go from there.

More is learned in defeat than ever in victory.

Jive Turkey said:

For those that think getting on a forum and beating someone up that's just looking for opinions, well, you and your comments mean about the same as the cow manure I scraped off my shoes this evening.

Click to expand...

Sorry but anyone who takes out a loan for a show animal is a moron.

Don't come on a public forum if you cannot handle the criticism.  Seems to me you are more upset you didn't get your loan money back than anything else.

Your complaining illustrates what is wrong with society today and our youth.  Everyone feels they are "owed" something. 

Next year, don't take out a loan, buy a cheap exotic, and go from there.

More is learned in defeat than ever in victory.

Click to expand...

I guess I must be a moron!

When my boy's started showing I took them to the bank and cosigned a note for them to pay for their calves and feed. Did we need to YES. We raised our own calves and could afford to pay for the feed BUT there is such a thing as building CREDIT!

When they got older and needed to buy a vehicle or other big money items they had established credit behind them. To me that is another thing that is beneficial from these projects.

Jive Turkey not all of us have the money to pay cash for everything we need.

Jive Turkey - I wanted to respectfully share with you that my two kids established a business relationship with my bank from the very first year they started showing steers and heifers.  They each started at age nine and continued until they graduated.  One spent four years in college and is now a school teacher.  The other barely made it out of high school - with the help of Divine Intervention - mom saying a prayer every day.  He's now a pipeline welder and making a very, very profitable living for a 29 year old.  Both kids still to this day do business with the same bank, same banker, as they did when they were nine.  In addition to learning valuable lessons at the barn and shows, they learned valuable lessons in the business world also.  Today they could pick up the phone or drop by the bank -and have done so on more than one occasion - and obtain a loan for whatever they needed because they have taken care of business all of their younger years.  I do agree with you that if a family can buy steers or heifers without borrowing money, that is awesome and definitely the way to go.  Not all families can manage that.  Just wanted to say that there are kids that have benefited from bankers that understand show projects and are willing to cultivate  customers that come back as adults. 

I myself took loans out for my projects way back when, a local bank, gave you a loan at 3% payable about a month after the fair (took that long to get your check). Back then I could raise 3 calves on 3500. Calves were around 500-600 a feed was 5 bucks a bag. At the age of 18 I had excellent credit and purchased my first truck with out a cosigner. I had money from my other projects but as I explained prior $300 to #400 profit (not accounting for man hours) did not go very far. Taking a loan out for more than you can earn at the sale is where you can get in trouble, if the low is $2 a pound then do not take a loan out for more than you can make, if it takes extra you find a way to earn it or come up with it. Pay the loan back first, yourself second.

We have a few companies in the area that will sponsor a kid, sometimes they pay for the animal the feed and at the end either purchase it through the sale for more than it cost, they get their cost back the kid gets to keep the extra money or they just get the animal after the show to eat, less risk for the kids and they get to raise a project.

I've got my smiley face back on today.

Kids need very good, and frankly conservative guidance from their parents on these projects.  I absolutely agree that helping your kid learn how to deal with a bank by cosigning a note for a project can be a very good, and valuable experience.  Contrary to what some of the new folks on this board probably think of me, I didn't have diddledy growing up.  My dad died when I was 10, raised by a single mom who never did remarry.  I got to show cattle because someone in my town took me under their wing.  I was referred to that person by my county agent.  My mom helped me borrow $600 from the bank for my first steer in 1985.  The guy - who practically served the role of father in my life - was very careful in not letting me get in over my head.  Frankly, he set me up for success.  When he realized how much I loved it and how hard I worked, he flat out bought my calves for me the rest of my show career and helped me get to a whole different level.  I was taken care of in county sales - not because my family spent a lot of money with anybody, but because I was a straight A student, helped with everything, and worked my tail off with my calves.  People figure out who the good kids are in a hurry.  There's not enough of them to this day.

There is no better program out there for a single mom to try to help their sons get involved with and more often than not, be exposed to some positive male role models when the father isn't around for whatever reason.  Mom's can do a lot of it, but boys do need to be taught how to be good men by other men. 

"Momma bears", "helicopter moms", etc. need to learn to back off and feed their kids to the wolves so to speak a little bit. Guess what - the kids will figure out how to make things work for themselves.  A kid is not going to get truly hurt and abused through the 4-H and FFA programs.  Kids DO NOT need protecting from the minor injustices that happen in these programs.  They will learn to claw their way to the top if they really care about it.

Jeff and others reactions to borrowing money for show calves is due to the inference that this family may be in financial trouble because they borrowed money for this calf.  Those of us that are around this program in Texas a lot hear some horror stories about some amazingly stupid people that borrow tens of thousands of dollars to try to win.  There are people in jail because of fraud for trying to come up with money to buy show steers.  It's all a matter of scale.  A family with limited financial resources can get in just as much trouble borrowing $2-$3k for a project.

The good news is that, if you really care about keeping your kid involved in it, you do not have to do that.  There are way more good calves than good kids/families.  If you will work through the system - and not against it - your ag teacher/agent or someone can help you find (1) a calf for market price that can be quite competetive, particularly at the county level, that is not a serious financial risk if you have to borrow money or (2) better yet, a sponsor that will foot the whole bill.  Those people are usually people whose kids are done showing and still love being a part of it.  There are a lot of those folks out there.  But you have to get to know people in your community and county - not going in with a flamethrower.  Helping a kid out like that requires trust on both ends.  That trust is not given, it has to be earned.

Honest truth and I'm not trying to be mean - if this lady's ex-husband is in jail for extortion or whatever, this boy needs a stabilizing and calming influence.  I can't imagine how bad that kid has been hurt.  Mom - you cannot turn into the dog that bites the hand that tries to help you and your son - no matter how bad you've been hurt.  There's plenty of real evil and injustice out there, 4-H/FFA and cattle showing isn't one of them.  Your county show isn't one of them.  It really sounds like a county show with limited financial resources.  THE VERY REASON 4-H/FFA leaders are there are for people in your situation.  Work with them to help your son, not against them.  Nobody's perfect, but getting people to spend money at these programs is very hard work.  These programs have been around a while and they are like they are because it works overall.  Not perfect, but is very unfair to use terms like conspiracies, kickbacks, etc.

People that spend a lot of money on calves are often targets of jealousy.  Number one, they don't care what their calves sell for.  Number two, often they aren't worth being jealous over.  You probably can't imagine the pressure that gets put on families when you do that.

I'm very proud - don't take it as arrogant - over the success I've made of myself SOLELY through the help of the very kind of people you are putting down.  I really am the poster child for what 4-H can do for a kid.  And I won't apologize for being defensive about people that try their best in an imperfect world to help kids like I was and your son is.  The system really does work if you'll let it.

good post chambero.  idealism has a habit of escalation and leads to zero-tolerance mentality.


life is like a river, row or swim against the current and you will need some carbs, and you might miss some scenery.

chambero said:

Getting me stirred up again....

XBAR - have you in any way fashion or form ever particpated in Grayson County Youth Fair as an exhibitor, livestock board member, or buyer?  If not (and I'm guessing the answer is no), you are talking out your .... again.

Click to expand...

Yes.  Many times as an exhibitor and once as a buyer. 

green8911 said:

when someone get's on a forum and the only thing they have to say is to call you a "moron", or "idiot", or belittle you, well, that in my opinion puts them right there with the lowest cowards of any history lesson there is and just below the worms under the cow patties in my field. 

Click to expand...

Refer to my earlier post.  I told you those who feel threatened by your proposal for change would  become extremely defensive.

I am sorry that some people on here were rude and insulting to you! That is never the right approach.

I am sorry you have had a bad experience and I hope you can find the positives in it.

I am very familiar with what you have experienced our sale is very much the same. My 10 yr old daughter did very well with her steer last year. She had a class winner, but inquired why her calf did not bring as much $ as some placing below her. It was exactly as some on here have mentioned there are families that we actually really like that do a lot of business within the community and buyers were trying to thank them for their patronage. So their animals brought a little more even though they placed lower. It was a lesson but she doesnt really worry about the $ much, she loves the "Bright Lights", she's a Ham.

Anyway what worries me is the idea of trying to steer kids away from the program. It really is inherently good. I think you should reconsider this.

And as far as the $ matching the placing, I am really not for that either. Because not only does that put a limit on the "affluent" but also on the not so well off that want to bust their butt and solicit buyers. Those kids should be able to work as hard as they want and raise as much $ as they can. I guess I still believe in the capitalist model!

Also thank you to BTDT and SandyB, those were some good comments on the other page I enjoyed reading them!

Those are my 2 cents!

kidsandkows, you're right.  I agree and I have reconsidered after reading all the helpful posts here and trying to ignore the belittleing ones (they aren't worth my time). 

Xbar, yes, you were 110% correct.

Chambero, GREAT POST.  I agree with you.  I came from nothing and am in that working up process.  There are a lot more people in the community who need that loan help from the local banks and credit unions to get started than there are who can just write a check for a show steer.  And frankly, I like taking my son down to the local bank and walking him through that process with me.  Talk about teaching him about business and life.  At the bank where we got the current loan, the banker actually made him sign through the paperwork with me and explained every little detail about the process, how it was obtained, credit, the payoff, interest, etc., etc.  Extremely good lesson.  The banker himself was in the show steer business so he understood our position and really did a good job of explaining the whole process from both a personal and a business perspective.  Whether you have a big fat bank account or not, that process is one that every kid should understand.  So if that makes me a "moron", well, give me the t-shirt and hat, I'm wearing it with pride.

-XBAR- said:

chambero said:

Getting me stirred up again....

XBAR - have you in any way fashion or form ever particpated in Grayson County Youth Fair as an exhibitor, livestock board member, or buyer?  If not (and I'm guessing the answer is no), you are talking out your .... again.

Click to expand...

Yes.  Many times as an exhibitor and once as a buyer. 

green8911 said:

when someone get's on a forum and the only thing they have to say is to call you a "moron", or "idiot", or belittle you, well, that in my opinion puts them right there with the lowest cowards of any history lesson there is and just below the worms under the cow patties in my field. 

Click to expand...

Refer to my earlier post.  I told you those who feel threatened by your proposal for change would  become extremely defensive.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected Ryan.  I don't remember you ever mention that you actually showed.  With your connections to business in the metroplex, I suspect you would be an asset to the Grayson County show committee or one of their buyer committees.  With your level of interest, get on one of them.  I'm sure they need younger blood and ideas.

Wow, this post has really taken off!!!

To green8911:  I hear you, and understand what you are saying in terms of the auction proceeds being in line with the placing of the animals.  As far as the part of your comments regarding begging for participation just so there is a show...I think that may be out in left field.  Popularity contest is a good term, and I agree. 

To Jive Turkey:  Anyone that calls another a "moron" without having all of the details may in fact BE a "moron".

To all that have a problem with borrowing money for show cattle:  We borrow the money for our show steers every year, and have since day one.  I realize that there are horror stories regarding the financial demise of families due to poor judgement and over spending on show cattle.  There are good business lessons that can be taught at the bank. 

To knabe:  I have never seen anyone with more quotes of wisdom than you.  I have never seen anyone that can seem to inject Political Party Affiliation as the demise of our country more often than you...and think that it is applicable.  I have never seen anyone that can come across as so intelligent one second, and completely make me shake my head the next.  You should run for President.

I have been in the same boat as many of you that have commented.  Our county has a rule in place that states the Reserve Champion can't bring more than the Grand Champion.  From there, NO calf can bring more than the Reserve Champion.  So in essence, the Reserve Champion steer sets the maximum for the steers that placed below him for the rest of the sale.  (No steer can bring more than a higher placing steer.)  So it is our first year showing, and we had the Reserve Champion steer.  Nobody knew us because we came out of nowhere.  My son led his steer into the sale ring, in front of all of those people......NOT A BID!  Not ONE SINGLE PERSON would bid.  And guess what?  There were a whole lot of really nervous people standing around there thinking that they were going to be capped at market price.  Finally, the auctioneer just ran him up on his own because the success of the entire sale was dependent upon what that steer brought.  After the sale, I asked the auctioneer who had bought our steer.  He told me "I don't know yet"!  He actually had to go round up the money from HIS customers.

I learned a lot from that auctioneer in regards to how this sale works, and some of the different formats that can be used.  This auctioneer had been on the Sale Committee for many years, owned a local Sale Barn, and was very active within the 4-H, FFA, and County Fair circles. 

There are TWO sides to this conversation.  One side is the exhibitors side, which we have certainly read a lot of in this thread.  This side says that "I should be able to sell my steer for as much money as I can round up."  How this money is rounded up will vary.  The child of the big farmer or feedlot owner will round it up from his vendors.  This family has a lot of "stroke" when it comes to making that phone call to tell the feed mill, seed corn company, implement dealer, etc. that their child had a purple ribbon steer in the sale tomorrow morning.

The other side is the one that most people don't care about.  That is the side of the BUYER.  You see, this buyer is many times not some big corporation.  Many times this buyer is a small business owner just trying to make a living himself.  This big farmer comes to him, and beats him down to NOTHING for a profit because he does so much business.  He demands service that goes WAY beyond what is reasonable or even realistic, because he does so much business.  He will sell the business down the river for a nickel, or at least make that business owner beg to keep his business.  And now that business owner has to take "the call".  The call that goes like this......"Ya, this is Joe Blow and my kid just had the whatever place steer at the county fair.  The sale is at 10:00 am tomorrow morning.  I will see you there."  X-BAR used the word "kickback".  How about the word EXACTION! 

This auctioneer told me that by adopting the system that our fair has in place, the Sale Committee has actually been able to significantly RAISE revenue and support for the sale.  He told me that there are a lot of businesses that have been willing to support the sale knowing that there is a cap in place.  By "limiting" a business persons exposure, they were able to get more people to participate. 

I am a supporter of SOME type of system that keeps things in line, but I am not in favor of an even split or predetermined amount or percentage for each steer.  I believe a buyer should have the ability to support the exhibitor of their own choosing.

AAMEN